I’ve been writing this evening and my memory of people’s comments have been extremely helpful. I feel like it’s clearer to me how to open up the poems, how to bring them to life. Though the actual creative responses are less helpful, I think people commented so thoughtfully during class because they had spent some careful time with the work while at home. I think responding creatively to people’s work makes me take a good hard look at what everyone is doing and come to class with more respect for their stuff.
Friday, February 27, 2004
I was writing a letter to a friend just now and posed a question that I want more of an immediate answer to, than the post with all its miracles, can provide. Poets/ philosophers in history have made great claims of the poet. I’m thinking in particular of someone who said that they are the eyes of the society. Was that Plato? Then I’m thinking about this modernist (and current) idea that the only real art is that which has made a discovery. So my question then is, are these artistic discoveries being made in writing and art completely insular, or are they discoveries that are leading the society forward as well? I guess I’m confused as to the overall relevance of these discoveries we’re making, UNLESS, they are bigger than they seem (that’s where the eyeballs come in I think). Are they bigger than they seem? If not, then what’s the big deal about discovering anything? How is pushing the genre forward going to push humanity forward?
I’ve been writing this evening and my memory of people’s comments have been extremely helpful. I feel like it’s clearer to me how to open up the poems, how to bring them to life. Though the actual creative responses are less helpful, I think people commented so thoughtfully during class because they had spent some careful time with the work while at home. I think responding creatively to people’s work makes me take a good hard look at what everyone is doing and come to class with more respect for their stuff.
I’ve been writing this evening and my memory of people’s comments have been extremely helpful. I feel like it’s clearer to me how to open up the poems, how to bring them to life. Though the actual creative responses are less helpful, I think people commented so thoughtfully during class because they had spent some careful time with the work while at home. I think responding creatively to people’s work makes me take a good hard look at what everyone is doing and come to class with more respect for their stuff.
I think blogging can be a fulltime job.
I can’t recall how the conversation got there, but, at White Horse, Jessea asked if there were differences between the so-called traditional VS experimental work. This topic is immortal! I think we have talked about this over and over and over. Some (like Jessea) think it’s all the same. Some (like me) think you could argue in a very very diverse way. Some (like me (and Jessea?)) think it shouldn’t matter if there is or isn’t a difference between them.
I think the followings:
If you think it’s all the same, you are aiming at the commonality of what’s called writing, huge and general. After all, there are twenty-six letters in the English language; it is just how those letters are employed to convey/provoke thoughts in the endless number of combination those letters allow. Language will always make you think, make you brain function, make you want to get something out of it, make you want to reason. Anything that is language (or has the feature of being a language, like music, as Jessea says) will always make you react that way. Writing takes place within language; therefore is conditioned to what language itself is for—to communicate. All that is written communicate.
If you think it’s not the same, you might be thinking at the more specific levels of what’s called writing. The twenty-six letters start to behave differently; some ask you to listen and be quite; some ask you to get up and jump. You could be saying things like traditional works ask you to me more of a receiver of what’s said while experimental works ask you to think along. (Now, Jessea, I could hear you scream right here and say that you always think along regardless…I know I know…bear with me, ok?) The receiving and the thinking have to happen in both cases, I think. They have to. I think that’s what happens when one reads. But, because the different things that enter your brain are likely to produce different occurrences in your brain, (e.g. full sentences vs interrupted phrases; “roses are red” vs “a moment yellow” (from My Life) ) people can argue that it is possible for writing to be of differences.
Traditional and experimental are not at all parallel in any way to good or bad. I think arguing differences is not arguing values. Values are a whole new blog.
If you think this shouldn’t matter, I agree with you. I think a piece of writing is going to do exactly what it does to you. It’s a fluid space, this space of poetry. It has to be. So I think it doesn’t hurt to know that writings have the potential to be categorized differently; it doesn’t hurt to believe that all writings share similarities or sameness. It’s completely valid to like or dislike a piece of work because you do. There will always be contradictory things in all levels. There will always be agreement and disagreements. So suit yourself and make the best of it.
OK. This came out simpler than I thought. Thanks for listening,
I can’t recall how the conversation got there, but, at White Horse, Jessea asked if there were differences between the so-called traditional VS experimental work. This topic is immortal! I think we have talked about this over and over and over. Some (like Jessea) think it’s all the same. Some (like me) think you could argue in a very very diverse way. Some (like me (and Jessea?)) think it shouldn’t matter if there is or isn’t a difference between them.
I think the followings:
If you think it’s all the same, you are aiming at the commonality of what’s called writing, huge and general. After all, there are twenty-six letters in the English language; it is just how those letters are employed to convey/provoke thoughts in the endless number of combination those letters allow. Language will always make you think, make you brain function, make you want to get something out of it, make you want to reason. Anything that is language (or has the feature of being a language, like music, as Jessea says) will always make you react that way. Writing takes place within language; therefore is conditioned to what language itself is for—to communicate. All that is written communicate.
If you think it’s not the same, you might be thinking at the more specific levels of what’s called writing. The twenty-six letters start to behave differently; some ask you to listen and be quite; some ask you to get up and jump. You could be saying things like traditional works ask you to me more of a receiver of what’s said while experimental works ask you to think along. (Now, Jessea, I could hear you scream right here and say that you always think along regardless…I know I know…bear with me, ok?) The receiving and the thinking have to happen in both cases, I think. They have to. I think that’s what happens when one reads. But, because the different things that enter your brain are likely to produce different occurrences in your brain, (e.g. full sentences vs interrupted phrases; “roses are red” vs “a moment yellow” (from My Life) ) people can argue that it is possible for writing to be of differences.
Traditional and experimental are not at all parallel in any way to good or bad. I think arguing differences is not arguing values. Values are a whole new blog.
If you think this shouldn’t matter, I agree with you. I think a piece of writing is going to do exactly what it does to you. It’s a fluid space, this space of poetry. It has to be. So I think it doesn’t hurt to know that writings have the potential to be categorized differently; it doesn’t hurt to believe that all writings share similarities or sameness. It’s completely valid to like or dislike a piece of work because you do. There will always be contradictory things in all levels. There will always be agreement and disagreements. So suit yourself and make the best of it.
OK. This came out simpler than I thought. Thanks for listening,
And for the cherry on top: Tomas called today. The walk with Rabbit next Sunday is on if we want to go. I think I need to know how many of us there are going to be more or less. If only a couple of us are going to go, it might not be worth his while. He did say a donation of 10.00. I'd say if you can pay 5.00- great. Who's in? (Shoot me an e-mail. mhamill@mills.edu Hoards of yea's and neigh's on the blog would be boring for our vast reading public.)
yes, i suggest a bus ride on an early morning from one Mexican city to another, especially on Day of the Dead, then try and learn a few things from your neighbor sitting on the bus (like the old lady selling baked goods)...who only speaks country spanish..and then smile and laugh alot and be grateful to view all the wonderful colors and life there is on a day that is reserved for the dead.
or maybe we should send them on a camel ride in the African desert...it is awfully fun, I swear!!
or maybe we should send them on a camel ride in the African desert...it is awfully fun, I swear!!
you guys are making me laugh. i want to say calm down and go on some god damn tours in some foreign countries where people speak a language that you don't speak and just be stupid for a while and, damn it, enjoy it. jeez. let some people make fun of you. be vulnerable and dumb for a few moments.
i plan to kidnap both kristen and scott and put them on funny bus together for week long tour.
and... there has to be a law where complications, troubles, anxieties, can't be used as excuses for inaction. so don't think, kristen, that you are getting off the hook of calling the b.p. tour back and finding out the time...
i plan to kidnap both kristen and scott and put them on funny bus together for week long tour.
and... there has to be a law where complications, troubles, anxieties, can't be used as excuses for inaction. so don't think, kristen, that you are getting off the hook of calling the b.p. tour back and finding out the time...
Another one from Scott:
Just as a sidenote, there's just this one thing I have to say: I'm not real
big on walkin'.
Just as a sidenote, there's just this one thing I have to say: I'm not real
big on walkin'.
This is me talking. First I'll just say I've been noncommittal all along on the tour project just because of the time issue. In general, kind of riffing on Jessea here, one one hand I love doing alternative tours and that type of thing because it's a good in, in the same way visiting a friend who lives someplace well known but lives in some out-of-the-way neighborhood is a good in. For me, that's the ideal way to get to know a "foreign" place (often, home) but one only has so many friends, right? And besides, sometimes they move to yuppie neighborhoods and it's just not so interesting anymore.
But this conversation is especially interesting to me because I am what you might call a reluctant (anxious? neurotic?) tourist. Some of this, those around me would swear, comes from my being a control freak -- I have trouble going places where I don't speak the language or otherwise feel out of place because I am not "in charge." I do think that's part of it, but there's something beyond that, too, and I can't quite define it. Like, I'm totally interested in the Black Panther tour, but I know that when I get there and we set off, a bunch of predominantly white Mills students in a rickety old van with an old school black militant and his boom box, learning a lot about his neighborhood and the movement but at the same time looking like the Pocatello, Idaho Bridge Club Vacation Tour I'm going to feel really weird.
I feel this way about countries, too. I am incredibly uncomfortable going places where I don't speak the language -- I feel conspicuous, stupid and rude all at the same time. So much so, that I really don't travel much. I honeymooned in Grand Rapids, Michigan, for christ's sake. Since the only foreign language I know even passably well is Swedish you can imagine how this has limited my travels. Things will be better once I learn Spanish, I guess. I'll not only get around a bit better in South America but I'll feel like a bit less of an ass when I go to the vegetable market one block from my apartment, too.
In talking with Truan in class the other night, I stated something that I used to think about a lot, but hadn't considered in a while. I told him that I became a journalist because it gives me permission to ask people all kinds of questions, which is much trickier to do in a social setting (once I was talking to a friend of a friend at a bar, or at least I thought I was, and he finally looked at me and said "Is this an interview?"). It also gives me permsission to go places where I would otherwise feel conspicuous, unwelcome, what have you. The reason I love Detroit as much as I do is because I spent 10 years there as a reporter talking to all kinds of interesting people, learning about all kinds of fascinating aspects of the city that I would have never encountered if I had been a mere civilian.
I don't really see a way out of this. I mean, I could stay home because the BP tour makes me kind of nervous, but that's pretty dumb. I could start volunteering at the BP headquarters and getting to know the movement/neighborhood that way, slowly, through unscripted/planned conversation, chance encounters, etc. but I don't exactly have the time (or even the desire). And would this be enough? In terms of this really tricky issue of "knowing?" I guess I just have to come to terms with the fact that sometimes I'm going to feel really conspicuous and awkward and naive and, for lack of a more PC way to put this, white.
Not that this is always a clear race/class/culture issue. The BP tour is just a good example for me because I can illustrate my anxieties really clearly in terms of some distinct differences. I feel this in subtler ways all the time though. Which is probably why I'm often hard pressed to leave my apartment. And why my preferred method for learning about something "foreign" to me is through books.
But this conversation is especially interesting to me because I am what you might call a reluctant (anxious? neurotic?) tourist. Some of this, those around me would swear, comes from my being a control freak -- I have trouble going places where I don't speak the language or otherwise feel out of place because I am not "in charge." I do think that's part of it, but there's something beyond that, too, and I can't quite define it. Like, I'm totally interested in the Black Panther tour, but I know that when I get there and we set off, a bunch of predominantly white Mills students in a rickety old van with an old school black militant and his boom box, learning a lot about his neighborhood and the movement but at the same time looking like the Pocatello, Idaho Bridge Club Vacation Tour I'm going to feel really weird.
I feel this way about countries, too. I am incredibly uncomfortable going places where I don't speak the language -- I feel conspicuous, stupid and rude all at the same time. So much so, that I really don't travel much. I honeymooned in Grand Rapids, Michigan, for christ's sake. Since the only foreign language I know even passably well is Swedish you can imagine how this has limited my travels. Things will be better once I learn Spanish, I guess. I'll not only get around a bit better in South America but I'll feel like a bit less of an ass when I go to the vegetable market one block from my apartment, too.
In talking with Truan in class the other night, I stated something that I used to think about a lot, but hadn't considered in a while. I told him that I became a journalist because it gives me permission to ask people all kinds of questions, which is much trickier to do in a social setting (once I was talking to a friend of a friend at a bar, or at least I thought I was, and he finally looked at me and said "Is this an interview?"). It also gives me permsission to go places where I would otherwise feel conspicuous, unwelcome, what have you. The reason I love Detroit as much as I do is because I spent 10 years there as a reporter talking to all kinds of interesting people, learning about all kinds of fascinating aspects of the city that I would have never encountered if I had been a mere civilian.
I don't really see a way out of this. I mean, I could stay home because the BP tour makes me kind of nervous, but that's pretty dumb. I could start volunteering at the BP headquarters and getting to know the movement/neighborhood that way, slowly, through unscripted/planned conversation, chance encounters, etc. but I don't exactly have the time (or even the desire). And would this be enough? In terms of this really tricky issue of "knowing?" I guess I just have to come to terms with the fact that sometimes I'm going to feel really conspicuous and awkward and naive and, for lack of a more PC way to put this, white.
Not that this is always a clear race/class/culture issue. The BP tour is just a good example for me because I can illustrate my anxieties really clearly in terms of some distinct differences. I feel this in subtler ways all the time though. Which is probably why I'm often hard pressed to leave my apartment. And why my preferred method for learning about something "foreign" to me is through books.
From Scott, sounds like I missed out on a real love-fest last night but the Trachtenburg Family Slideshow Players (yeah, real highbrow Scott) were pretty kick-ass, in an annoying, we-scour-garage-sales-for-a-living kind of way.
On to Mr. Bentley:
This is sent to you via Kristen because my technology sucks and Kristen
wasn't there at the White Horse because she chose to bail and go visit some "high brow" art thingy. Anyway, yes, I smoked a cigarette and it was good; thanks, all, for coming to the White Horse. Jack Spicer was there and it was good. The woman doing gymnastics in the background to post-Bronski Beat soundtrack was a bit of a problem, but what're y' gonna do? Thing is, I think these conversations are valuable; I think nicotine is valuable; I think having to decide between a Long Island Iced Tea and a Manhattan on Thursday night when perhaps the
greatest cultural event to come to pass in the last decade (the demise of
FRIENDS) happens simultaneously and we ignore it IS valuable; and I think that we ought perhaps to figure out, as a unified front, how to proceed. You folks rock! Narrative, representation, story, blah blah... We talk; it makes noise. It's an honor to be in your presence, in the presence of the people whose work will someday change the trickle of the floe. Thanks for comin' out. Let's change the direction of the culture. The pistol shot was at Mills College. Now what?
That's an important question, don'cha think?
Radio, radio--
Scott
On to Mr. Bentley:
This is sent to you via Kristen because my technology sucks and Kristen
wasn't there at the White Horse because she chose to bail and go visit some "high brow" art thingy. Anyway, yes, I smoked a cigarette and it was good; thanks, all, for coming to the White Horse. Jack Spicer was there and it was good. The woman doing gymnastics in the background to post-Bronski Beat soundtrack was a bit of a problem, but what're y' gonna do? Thing is, I think these conversations are valuable; I think nicotine is valuable; I think having to decide between a Long Island Iced Tea and a Manhattan on Thursday night when perhaps the
greatest cultural event to come to pass in the last decade (the demise of
FRIENDS) happens simultaneously and we ignore it IS valuable; and I think that we ought perhaps to figure out, as a unified front, how to proceed. You folks rock! Narrative, representation, story, blah blah... We talk; it makes noise. It's an honor to be in your presence, in the presence of the people whose work will someday change the trickle of the floe. Thanks for comin' out. Let's change the direction of the culture. The pistol shot was at Mills College. Now what?
That's an important question, don'cha think?
Radio, radio--
Scott
I have some comments about Tran's in-class discussion, and it might be related to tour/ism.
When he talked about the Vietnam book, that he felt he was violating culture for the sake of poetry, I could very much identify with what that could mean. Now, to say what follows, I fully realize that where he stands is entirely different from mine (This US is his home; it's not mine. My home is the there; his isn't). But there are some similiarities, I think.
OK. First let me say this. The result of this visit, the book (which I haven't read; I am basing this on Tran's comment)--seems to resonate with Orientialism in a very distant way. It says something like "there's different culture; let's go learn from it." In the case of Oreintalism, there was this "missionary" (aka colonial) ideology to it. In Tran's case, the writer himself was aware of it. This very fact I think is intriquing. The book is a good example, I think, of bounced-back-Orientalism.
What works so beautifully in d&c I think is the sense of honesty, filtered through the work of writing. The sense of honesty is what I assume lacking in the other book. And this lack, I think, made he said what he said.
How one identifies with one's honesty (there's a different between being honest and being personal, I think) is unimaginably abstract. I'm not going to get there. But honesty is really really important to have exhibited in one's work.
Now, if alternative tours witinin one's community help build up that sense of honesty, I'd say go for it. If not, then don't.
BTW: Jessea, I'll blog for you what I have to say about your question if there are differences b/w traditional vs experimental work this weekend. Stay tuned. Going to bars brings very fun discussions!
When he talked about the Vietnam book, that he felt he was violating culture for the sake of poetry, I could very much identify with what that could mean. Now, to say what follows, I fully realize that where he stands is entirely different from mine (This US is his home; it's not mine. My home is the there; his isn't). But there are some similiarities, I think.
OK. First let me say this. The result of this visit, the book (which I haven't read; I am basing this on Tran's comment)--seems to resonate with Orientialism in a very distant way. It says something like "there's different culture; let's go learn from it." In the case of Oreintalism, there was this "missionary" (aka colonial) ideology to it. In Tran's case, the writer himself was aware of it. This very fact I think is intriquing. The book is a good example, I think, of bounced-back-Orientalism.
What works so beautifully in d&c I think is the sense of honesty, filtered through the work of writing. The sense of honesty is what I assume lacking in the other book. And this lack, I think, made he said what he said.
How one identifies with one's honesty (there's a different between being honest and being personal, I think) is unimaginably abstract. I'm not going to get there. But honesty is really really important to have exhibited in one's work.
Now, if alternative tours witinin one's community help build up that sense of honesty, I'd say go for it. If not, then don't.
BTW: Jessea, I'll blog for you what I have to say about your question if there are differences b/w traditional vs experimental work this weekend. Stay tuned. Going to bars brings very fun discussions!
some suggestions on what to read in joan retallack's, the poethical wager...
my first suggestion is to read all of it. it is very good.
but if you're running out of time, and part of being in graduate school is figuring out what to read within the limited # of years one is in graduate school, these seem the crucial essays...
introduction
the poethical wager
wager as essay
:re:thinking:literary:feminism: (this one is a classic!)
another interesting essay is "SECNÀHC GNIKÀT : TAKING CHANCES" at the epc.
i also wanted to check in some on the workshop. if i can talk you into posting something about the procedure process here, please...
mainly b/c i felt when reading dan's work and then having to do the procedure on it that i got somewhere that i couldn't/wouldn't have gotten to without having to do something, anything. it was very profound moment for me. i think if i had just had to read his work and maybe write a few notes in the margins and then come to workshop, i would have done a much more superficial reading of it. i wouldn't have thought about the limits and/or possibilities of how poems make meaning. his work also made me think about metaphor/metonymy a lot and i wouldn't have thought about that if i was just "reading" it. in other words, doing the procedure...all parts of it--from trying to think about what to do and then to doing it...slowed me down and made me read very differently. and it made me read with way more respect.
responding to meg's went a little differently. i enjoyed the procedure that i did. i actually liked, if that is the word, what i wrote and thought that some of the stuff that i did in the procedure i might carry back into my own work at some point. so that was helpful for me in the selfish sense. i did feel again that having to do something to her work made me think more about what her work did. it was only when i started thinking about what sort of procedure to do that i began to think about what was in and what was not in the poem in terms of content. i'm not sure i would have gotten there w/o having to do something to the poem. but it wasn't as intense as it was with dan's. i'm sure this has something to say about conventions of readability. and that meg is not writing a fugue report.
when i think back to previous weeks also, i realize that i had thoughts i wouldn't have had if i had just had to read the poems (i'm sure i would be "winging" it more also if i just had to "read" them conventionally; saying to myself well i'm not sure what is going on here so i'll go and see what they say at workshop; now i feel like i have to try and figure out something that is happening because i have to base my response on it). when i had to respond to kristen's and jessea's work i started thinking about that issue of tightness of box and how that works or not in various ways which i'm still thinking about. with william's i started thinking a lot about commands and what sort of work they do. etc.
could other people weigh in? also would like to hear from someone who has reworked their poem after workshop, or maybe if you just have a new plan to rework it.
my first suggestion is to read all of it. it is very good.
but if you're running out of time, and part of being in graduate school is figuring out what to read within the limited # of years one is in graduate school, these seem the crucial essays...
introduction
the poethical wager
wager as essay
:re:thinking:literary:feminism: (this one is a classic!)
another interesting essay is "SECNÀHC GNIKÀT : TAKING CHANCES" at the epc.
i also wanted to check in some on the workshop. if i can talk you into posting something about the procedure process here, please...
mainly b/c i felt when reading dan's work and then having to do the procedure on it that i got somewhere that i couldn't/wouldn't have gotten to without having to do something, anything. it was very profound moment for me. i think if i had just had to read his work and maybe write a few notes in the margins and then come to workshop, i would have done a much more superficial reading of it. i wouldn't have thought about the limits and/or possibilities of how poems make meaning. his work also made me think about metaphor/metonymy a lot and i wouldn't have thought about that if i was just "reading" it. in other words, doing the procedure...all parts of it--from trying to think about what to do and then to doing it...slowed me down and made me read very differently. and it made me read with way more respect.
responding to meg's went a little differently. i enjoyed the procedure that i did. i actually liked, if that is the word, what i wrote and thought that some of the stuff that i did in the procedure i might carry back into my own work at some point. so that was helpful for me in the selfish sense. i did feel again that having to do something to her work made me think more about what her work did. it was only when i started thinking about what sort of procedure to do that i began to think about what was in and what was not in the poem in terms of content. i'm not sure i would have gotten there w/o having to do something to the poem. but it wasn't as intense as it was with dan's. i'm sure this has something to say about conventions of readability. and that meg is not writing a fugue report.
when i think back to previous weeks also, i realize that i had thoughts i wouldn't have had if i had just had to read the poems (i'm sure i would be "winging" it more also if i just had to "read" them conventionally; saying to myself well i'm not sure what is going on here so i'll go and see what they say at workshop; now i feel like i have to try and figure out something that is happening because i have to base my response on it). when i had to respond to kristen's and jessea's work i started thinking about that issue of tightness of box and how that works or not in various ways which i'm still thinking about. with william's i started thinking a lot about commands and what sort of work they do. etc.
could other people weigh in? also would like to hear from someone who has reworked their poem after workshop, or maybe if you just have a new plan to rework it.
Juliana-Thanks for a clearer response to the many 'issues' sitting on the table. I agree we can either do nothing about it, or do something about it, and perhaps 'walking' or any other acts of 'participating' in our communities will help flesh out answers (though I'm not convinced there is only one), and inevitably will propose more questions and more things to think about in different ways. This I believe makes life interesting in the moment and offers us a wealth of subjects to write about from different angles.
oh jeez. so many issues.
Jessea, when you write "I want to know how this could be avoided." I think are many and no answers here. But more importantly, that this demand is a, I almost wrote _the_, crucial question/demand for being a writer in the late 20th c and early 21st century where there is no longer a clear, pure, undiluted, national culture/community that one can write from. And I think it is related to when I was trying to push Kristen harder on what was bothering her about Yedda's work (where I wanted her to separate Yedda's comment in class from the work itself and figure out what sorts of claims the book was making). In other words, you might not be able to avoid the problems you notice around this issue, but you can't pretend that it isn't going to come up.
Tran was sweetly evasive in a lot of his answers. I haven't read the Vietnam book yet so I can't really speak with much authority. Could someone that has read it, explain how the Vietnam book differs from the rewritten version in d&c? I felt somewhat from our conversation that his answer was to move to the personal, which makes me nervous. But if we read these two books side by side, we might have one person's answer on how "this" could be avoided.
What is "this" again? Appropriation?
We've been over this before, but I think one way of dealing with this issue is to root the work in these issues, to take them on directly, and to make one's affiliations clear and complicated. Also, I think there is something about doing "the work." Whatever that is. Which might be learning the language or studying the history or reading the testimony.
I think there is a difference between tourism and tours at moments. Or tours can be both tourism (6 European countries in 4 days) and community activism/respect/education (perhaps Black Panthers tour?). What if Albany Bulb "tour" makes us ask questions about community art and how museums and art establishment works and then we ask ourselves how we might make poetry that asks same questions and what would that look like? And what if it makes us also ask questions like is it annoying to arrange trash into art and assume everyone wants to look at it? Or when does art become interference?
But keep pushing at these. I'm confident there is not a single answer but that any sort of answer is more a nexus of ideas and convictions, some of them personal and some of them collective. This is the hard work of being a human being who thinks in this moment in time. It should be fun to try and figure this out.
Jessea, when you write "I want to know how this could be avoided." I think are many and no answers here. But more importantly, that this demand is a, I almost wrote _the_, crucial question/demand for being a writer in the late 20th c and early 21st century where there is no longer a clear, pure, undiluted, national culture/community that one can write from. And I think it is related to when I was trying to push Kristen harder on what was bothering her about Yedda's work (where I wanted her to separate Yedda's comment in class from the work itself and figure out what sorts of claims the book was making). In other words, you might not be able to avoid the problems you notice around this issue, but you can't pretend that it isn't going to come up.
Tran was sweetly evasive in a lot of his answers. I haven't read the Vietnam book yet so I can't really speak with much authority. Could someone that has read it, explain how the Vietnam book differs from the rewritten version in d&c? I felt somewhat from our conversation that his answer was to move to the personal, which makes me nervous. But if we read these two books side by side, we might have one person's answer on how "this" could be avoided.
What is "this" again? Appropriation?
We've been over this before, but I think one way of dealing with this issue is to root the work in these issues, to take them on directly, and to make one's affiliations clear and complicated. Also, I think there is something about doing "the work." Whatever that is. Which might be learning the language or studying the history or reading the testimony.
I think there is a difference between tourism and tours at moments. Or tours can be both tourism (6 European countries in 4 days) and community activism/respect/education (perhaps Black Panthers tour?). What if Albany Bulb "tour" makes us ask questions about community art and how museums and art establishment works and then we ask ourselves how we might make poetry that asks same questions and what would that look like? And what if it makes us also ask questions like is it annoying to arrange trash into art and assume everyone wants to look at it? Or when does art become interference?
But keep pushing at these. I'm confident there is not a single answer but that any sort of answer is more a nexus of ideas and convictions, some of them personal and some of them collective. This is the hard work of being a human being who thinks in this moment in time. It should be fun to try and figure this out.
Thursday, February 26, 2004
Hi Jessea
First I want to say..I just came back from a drive between postings and realize that I have been a bit frustrated today over various other things...my response to you and the walks in general, seems, in retrospect, curt and almost 'ranting'..NOT intended, really!
I think you raise interesting questions and ones that have been hanging around our classes, especially within Juliana's. Can we blame you J for all our confusion? The question of community is especially an interesting one, and how we each relate to our communities is equally interesting and individual. Juliana's classes have both raised concerns, methods, and different ways of writing into/out of community––and that includes all aspects of community, ethnic, race, street, neighborhood, world, etc. For me it has become a question/and or method of looking outside my own 'world' and taking an active look at how I relate to my community. What/Who/and Where is my community is also a very big question. I look at this everyday, and not only out of poetic interest and engagement, but purely out of a quest for new community and new relationships that are filled with meaning.
The 'walk' project for me, was simply a way of getting together with my poetry community, while also spending time in and around the communities in which we live––and no less as a means for looking at the many questions you propose.
First I want to say..I just came back from a drive between postings and realize that I have been a bit frustrated today over various other things...my response to you and the walks in general, seems, in retrospect, curt and almost 'ranting'..NOT intended, really!
I think you raise interesting questions and ones that have been hanging around our classes, especially within Juliana's. Can we blame you J for all our confusion? The question of community is especially an interesting one, and how we each relate to our communities is equally interesting and individual. Juliana's classes have both raised concerns, methods, and different ways of writing into/out of community––and that includes all aspects of community, ethnic, race, street, neighborhood, world, etc. For me it has become a question/and or method of looking outside my own 'world' and taking an active look at how I relate to my community. What/Who/and Where is my community is also a very big question. I look at this everyday, and not only out of poetic interest and engagement, but purely out of a quest for new community and new relationships that are filled with meaning.
The 'walk' project for me, was simply a way of getting together with my poetry community, while also spending time in and around the communities in which we live––and no less as a means for looking at the many questions you propose.
I want to clarify that my feelings on tourism are my own--my own reservations. In no way am I pointing a finger at anyone else. I don't want to dismiss anything--in fact, because it makes me uncomfortable, I want to think more about it. But I could tell there was frustration over lack of enthusiasm, & I wanted to give my own possible reasons for it (along w/scheduling nightmares & how to organize, etc.).
I'm curious about why we feel the need to include the local in the first place. Or why we automatically assume it is the right thing to do. Or how we think are the best ways of going about it. What does it mean? Are we automatically assuming our work isn't local, or that certain scenery will make it more so, or that we are more a part of where we live if we explore these things. I'm interested in the urge that leads us here to start with. It seems that we presuppose a feeling that we don't include local, or that we don't include it enough.. Am I way off base?
And then say we all agree that this is true. If so, I think that any attempts to include something, because one thinks one should, will lead to some complications. Not that this is bad, but for me I would need to address these issues. How do you include local without appropriation, without "local color" as scenery? How do you avoid being a tourist? This came up in discussion last night @ J's Fin de Siecle class. Truong Tran talked about his experiences going back to Vietnam with express purpose of writing about it (on a grant from Haas family fund, these people are descendents of Levi's family). He ended up putting a book together that apparently got slammed for being touristy, for "othering" the people of Vietnam, for creating distance. I want to know how this could be avoided.
Maybe this has nothing to do with project & I am just neurotic & you guys just want to take walks. But this is where the project has led me in my thinking.
Romney..I don't want you or anyone to be frustrated for trying to put something together & not getting feedback or support. These are my thoughts..are there others? Just because I am talking about my personal complications doesn't mean project should die or have dark cloud hanging over it.
Meg--I did say we could do both or neither or whatever we want..
I will talk to you guys more (over beers?) and narrow down my ideas for poem response project. Maybe I hate that word project. More to come.
I'm curious about why we feel the need to include the local in the first place. Or why we automatically assume it is the right thing to do. Or how we think are the best ways of going about it. What does it mean? Are we automatically assuming our work isn't local, or that certain scenery will make it more so, or that we are more a part of where we live if we explore these things. I'm interested in the urge that leads us here to start with. It seems that we presuppose a feeling that we don't include local, or that we don't include it enough.. Am I way off base?
And then say we all agree that this is true. If so, I think that any attempts to include something, because one thinks one should, will lead to some complications. Not that this is bad, but for me I would need to address these issues. How do you include local without appropriation, without "local color" as scenery? How do you avoid being a tourist? This came up in discussion last night @ J's Fin de Siecle class. Truong Tran talked about his experiences going back to Vietnam with express purpose of writing about it (on a grant from Haas family fund, these people are descendents of Levi's family). He ended up putting a book together that apparently got slammed for being touristy, for "othering" the people of Vietnam, for creating distance. I want to know how this could be avoided.
Maybe this has nothing to do with project & I am just neurotic & you guys just want to take walks. But this is where the project has led me in my thinking.
Romney..I don't want you or anyone to be frustrated for trying to put something together & not getting feedback or support. These are my thoughts..are there others? Just because I am talking about my personal complications doesn't mean project should die or have dark cloud hanging over it.
Meg--I did say we could do both or neither or whatever we want..
I will talk to you guys more (over beers?) and narrow down my ideas for poem response project. Maybe I hate that word project. More to come.
Regarding Walks: I'm sorry that there is a relating walking with tourism to know our community as certainly the intentions do no lie there. Originally the idea was born out of our discussions prior to class (and I believe I proposed it based on a class assignment I had at CCA), and not at all because of David Buck's e-mail.
His came as a 'nice' addition, or at least, something of interest in order to "take a walk with interesting and like-minded people and to check out our community waterfronts." Quotes are Bucks..or atleast my paraphrase of him. My interest and promotion of the walk theme was to give us a 'project' by where we came together at different locations, took a walk with the intent of 'looking' and 'seeing' what is there, and then writing about it. How this relates into community is up to each of us.
Glaumming (sp?) onto set-up tours came about as walks were proposed and certainly is not necessary. But, in DEFENSE of such tours and the ones named, there is something very 'particular' and 'community' related to each of the three. I also find, that it is often, tourists if you will, that find out more about our cities and communities because they either have the time or inititiative to take long walks or investigate historical points of the places they are visiting. When is the last time any of us took a walk through old Oakland, spent an afternoon in Fruitvale, walked through Emeryville (and not at the movies), strolled along our waterfront, looked into the creek restoration project of Oakland, hiked in the hills, visited a church on MLK, walked through the Rose garden or learned more about the small/more unknown places of our surroundings. And not to disclude the ever bountiful San Francisco, the mission, the parks, the alleys, and so forth. Personally I don't mind paying for a tour through Precita Eyes as I think it is one of the culturally rich areas and the art is often enough really amazing. It is also gives a glimpse of the Chicano Culture throughout California history that is very fascinating. Albany Bowl gives us a glimpse of the renegade 'art' scene in the East Bay and the politicization of the arts and our waterfront. Regarding the Black Panther Tour...this was exciting to me and made me feel less like an 'arm chair traveler' of the historical points of Oakland.
But...true others need to be interested and willing to rally around...so I'm done for the organzing part and no hard feelings. We are all busy, I realize this..and our interests lie all over the map. For myself, I love to walk and I love to get out and see things and was particularly excited to participate in things/go places that I might not otherwise go to or see. All is well. I'm still on for an Albany Bowl walk if any one wants to go.
His came as a 'nice' addition, or at least, something of interest in order to "take a walk with interesting and like-minded people and to check out our community waterfronts." Quotes are Bucks..or atleast my paraphrase of him. My interest and promotion of the walk theme was to give us a 'project' by where we came together at different locations, took a walk with the intent of 'looking' and 'seeing' what is there, and then writing about it. How this relates into community is up to each of us.
Glaumming (sp?) onto set-up tours came about as walks were proposed and certainly is not necessary. But, in DEFENSE of such tours and the ones named, there is something very 'particular' and 'community' related to each of the three. I also find, that it is often, tourists if you will, that find out more about our cities and communities because they either have the time or inititiative to take long walks or investigate historical points of the places they are visiting. When is the last time any of us took a walk through old Oakland, spent an afternoon in Fruitvale, walked through Emeryville (and not at the movies), strolled along our waterfront, looked into the creek restoration project of Oakland, hiked in the hills, visited a church on MLK, walked through the Rose garden or learned more about the small/more unknown places of our surroundings. And not to disclude the ever bountiful San Francisco, the mission, the parks, the alleys, and so forth. Personally I don't mind paying for a tour through Precita Eyes as I think it is one of the culturally rich areas and the art is often enough really amazing. It is also gives a glimpse of the Chicano Culture throughout California history that is very fascinating. Albany Bowl gives us a glimpse of the renegade 'art' scene in the East Bay and the politicization of the arts and our waterfront. Regarding the Black Panther Tour...this was exciting to me and made me feel less like an 'arm chair traveler' of the historical points of Oakland.
But...true others need to be interested and willing to rally around...so I'm done for the organzing part and no hard feelings. We are all busy, I realize this..and our interests lie all over the map. For myself, I love to walk and I love to get out and see things and was particularly excited to participate in things/go places that I might not otherwise go to or see. All is well. I'm still on for an Albany Bowl walk if any one wants to go.
Hmmm. I personally like the idea of going on walks. I'm not bent on putting a chapbook together. If we do we do. If we don't we don't. However, if we do want to create a group project, then making it as accessible to everyone as possible seems important. I think the walks are a bit controversial cause it's money, and it's requiring that people get to these obscure places without public transportation. Jessea- I like your idea too. I guess I feel like the best part about the walks is that we are out in the community doing things together. The tourism bit doesn't really bother me. If we took away the tourguides, would it make it better? It seems good to explore where you live. I don't think there has to be any pressure to be there to participate on these walks or else, or even to make it into a big project. I think exploring the Albany Bulb sounds like a really great day. But maybe a few of us should go on the walks and get something together as a few instead of a dozen. And then Jessea maybe you should flesh out your idea a bit and let us know. If we want to get a book together as a group, maybe we should just all contribute something?
on Walks...
the idea has been gnawing at me for a few weeks now in regard to the Walk project. i feel slightly uncomfortable w/the tourist overtones in it--that in order to "get to know our community" we must get in a bus, have experts lead us around, pay admission, look at our home with a distancing eye.. the phenomenon that suddenly a sewage treatment plant is interesting because we decide to rename it as a tour.. reminds me of driving across America this summer and all the crazy tourist billboards (most heavily located in South Dakota). the spectacle of the spectacle! put up a billboard and you have an attraction, it becomes more interesting because there is an informational placard, or a tour guide..
Anyway, Romney, there seems to be a lack of interest in the project. The project started because we thought we had all this graduate money & wanted to figure out a way to use it..then David Buuck's activities seemed to be along the lines of what we wanted to do.. But we don't have to do that idea, if people aren't that excited about it.
One thing I believe is that whatever we do, we WILL need a person to manage things, organize, rally troops. I don't know if any of us wants to be that person, or has time to be that person, but we will need one. It might be better to agree on that before we get going so no hard feelings later.
Should we regroup on this?
On the project I mentioned (response poems), I guess the attraction is that we can all interact w/each other's work but it would be much easier to organize. Also if it's not interesting in the end we don't have to do anything with it. No risk guarantee! Maybe only fun for ourselves, but who cares if no one else likes it? We can just stuff it in closet or hard drive.
We could do both projects. We could do another one no one has thought of yet!
Printing chapbook will be huge time commitment. If we're going to try to do that, we need to first make sure we have the money. Someone will have to step up and take that on. If no one steps up, I don't think it will happen.
Maybe we should have another chat to reassess availability & how much people want to put in to project & if original Walk idea is still tantalizing.
the idea has been gnawing at me for a few weeks now in regard to the Walk project. i feel slightly uncomfortable w/the tourist overtones in it--that in order to "get to know our community" we must get in a bus, have experts lead us around, pay admission, look at our home with a distancing eye.. the phenomenon that suddenly a sewage treatment plant is interesting because we decide to rename it as a tour.. reminds me of driving across America this summer and all the crazy tourist billboards (most heavily located in South Dakota). the spectacle of the spectacle! put up a billboard and you have an attraction, it becomes more interesting because there is an informational placard, or a tour guide..
Anyway, Romney, there seems to be a lack of interest in the project. The project started because we thought we had all this graduate money & wanted to figure out a way to use it..then David Buuck's activities seemed to be along the lines of what we wanted to do.. But we don't have to do that idea, if people aren't that excited about it.
One thing I believe is that whatever we do, we WILL need a person to manage things, organize, rally troops. I don't know if any of us wants to be that person, or has time to be that person, but we will need one. It might be better to agree on that before we get going so no hard feelings later.
Should we regroup on this?
On the project I mentioned (response poems), I guess the attraction is that we can all interact w/each other's work but it would be much easier to organize. Also if it's not interesting in the end we don't have to do anything with it. No risk guarantee! Maybe only fun for ourselves, but who cares if no one else likes it? We can just stuff it in closet or hard drive.
We could do both projects. We could do another one no one has thought of yet!
Printing chapbook will be huge time commitment. If we're going to try to do that, we need to first make sure we have the money. Someone will have to step up and take that on. If no one steps up, I don't think it will happen.
Maybe we should have another chat to reassess availability & how much people want to put in to project & if original Walk idea is still tantalizing.
Wednesday, February 25, 2004
A reminder that tomorrow we will be drinking beer together. This week at the White Horse Tavern, 9:00 ish (after Stephen's class).
The Tavern is found at:
6551 Telegraph Ave
Oakland 94609
CLICK FOR MAP
(Scott, this is for you...You should come even though Kristin won't be there. We like you.)
The Tavern is found at:
6551 Telegraph Ave
Oakland 94609
CLICK FOR MAP
(Scott, this is for you...You should come even though Kristin won't be there. We like you.)
I would also like to add a tour of the downtown Oakland area...China Town/ Friday Farmer's Market. I haven't been able to find a tour but have left messages with the Port of Oakland regarding some of their tours, such as the Jack London History Walk.
I have not heard from many of you regarding the Walks. William, could you please let me know how we should go about requesting funds to cover tours/etc . Are people still interested in this project? In order to book a reading period in the Museum, we need to know if people are really interested and willing to follow through.
My response to Jessea's project is that it sounds great, but I had 'thought' we had a 'project' to work on in the now, with thoughts to 'produce' a document of sorts, as well.
The following is a tentative schedule of walks:
Sunday Feb 29 10-12 Albany Bowl
Sunday March 7/or 14 Mural Tour in the Mission
Saturday March 27 Black Panther Tour
Feedback would be great!
My response to Jessea's project is that it sounds great, but I had 'thought' we had a 'project' to work on in the now, with thoughts to 'produce' a document of sorts, as well.
The following is a tentative schedule of walks:
Sunday Feb 29 10-12 Albany Bowl
Sunday March 7/or 14 Mural Tour in the Mission
Saturday March 27 Black Panther Tour
Feedback would be great!
I was gone for the weekend and came back to tons of admin work so I'm way behind on everything. And I think it is only going to get worse because I'm going to Seattle and Vancouver next week. (Thus, no class!)
Few thoughts to try and catch up...
I'm trying to read through the Joan Retallack book because I wanted to suggest some essays on which to concentrate but I don't think I'm going to make it through the book before class today. It is very good. Jessea might find it interesting because it answers that why write poetry question without the politics answer. Also lots on philosophical discussion that Padcha might find interesting. I might be able to do finish the book before I leave for the upper west coast and if I do I will make suggestions. But if not, try and find your way through the book. It is long but it is very good.
I called the bookstore and the book will be there tomorrow.
I like Prynne's work a great deal. I also love considering how exaggerated music is very deeply.
Question of poetic influence is interesting because I'm thinking about doing the craft class next semester around the issue of positive influence.
On Jessea's project idea... In graduate school, jena osman organized this project that got published as The Lab Book. I'm not sure I've got a copy of it anymore. But she had everyone write a poem and then everyone else responsed to everyone else's poem. I'm not sure it is the most interesting book in the world. So I guess the question would be, is there a way to make this so that everyone works together on something rather than just responding individually. Or I guess that would be my encouragement. To make it somehow more dialogic.
I have suggestions for writing in a trance.
William, it sounds like you might enjoy reading that by now classic Charles Bernstein essay, "Artifice of Absorption." Veronica Forrest Thompson (another English poet!) is also good on this issue.
If I get time today, I will try and add the Bernstein to the reserve list. The VFT is a book and too long to add. (I'm trying to build a series of articles that will stay on reserves for workshops semester after semester... let me know if you've got any ideas).
So far...
Commitment Adorno, Theodor W. ELECTRONIC RESOURCES -- -- ONLINE RESERVE Creative reading techniques Padgett, Ron ELECTRONIC RESOURCES -- -- ONLINE RESERVE
How are verses made Mayakovsky, Vladimir ELECTRONIC RESOURCES -- -- ONLINE RESERVE
Oulipo : a primer of potential literature / translated and ecited by Warren F. Motte, Jr. (no author)
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / edited
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / edited
The Princeton handbook of poetic terms / Alex Preminger, editor ; Frank J. Warnke and O.B. Hardison,
The Teachers & writers handbook of poetic forms / edited by Ron Padgett.
and, for this class in particular...
The midnight / Susan Howe. Howe, Susan, 1937- Reserve-Circulation Desk -- 811.54 H858m 2003
Nest / Mei-mei Berssenbrugge. Berssenbrugge, Mei-mei, 1947- Reserve-Circulation Desk -- 811.54 B53n 2003 --
Few thoughts to try and catch up...
I'm trying to read through the Joan Retallack book because I wanted to suggest some essays on which to concentrate but I don't think I'm going to make it through the book before class today. It is very good. Jessea might find it interesting because it answers that why write poetry question without the politics answer. Also lots on philosophical discussion that Padcha might find interesting. I might be able to do finish the book before I leave for the upper west coast and if I do I will make suggestions. But if not, try and find your way through the book. It is long but it is very good.
I called the bookstore and the book will be there tomorrow.
I like Prynne's work a great deal. I also love considering how exaggerated music is very deeply.
Question of poetic influence is interesting because I'm thinking about doing the craft class next semester around the issue of positive influence.
On Jessea's project idea... In graduate school, jena osman organized this project that got published as The Lab Book. I'm not sure I've got a copy of it anymore. But she had everyone write a poem and then everyone else responsed to everyone else's poem. I'm not sure it is the most interesting book in the world. So I guess the question would be, is there a way to make this so that everyone works together on something rather than just responding individually. Or I guess that would be my encouragement. To make it somehow more dialogic.
I have suggestions for writing in a trance.
William, it sounds like you might enjoy reading that by now classic Charles Bernstein essay, "Artifice of Absorption." Veronica Forrest Thompson (another English poet!) is also good on this issue.
If I get time today, I will try and add the Bernstein to the reserve list. The VFT is a book and too long to add. (I'm trying to build a series of articles that will stay on reserves for workshops semester after semester... let me know if you've got any ideas).
So far...
Commitment Adorno, Theodor W. ELECTRONIC RESOURCES -- -- ONLINE RESERVE Creative reading techniques Padgett, Ron ELECTRONIC RESOURCES -- -- ONLINE RESERVE
How are verses made Mayakovsky, Vladimir ELECTRONIC RESOURCES -- -- ONLINE RESERVE
Oulipo : a primer of potential literature / translated and ecited by Warren F. Motte, Jr. (no author)
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / edited
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / edited
The Princeton handbook of poetic terms / Alex Preminger, editor ; Frank J. Warnke and O.B. Hardison,
The Teachers & writers handbook of poetic forms / edited by Ron Padgett.
and, for this class in particular...
The midnight / Susan Howe. Howe, Susan, 1937- Reserve-Circulation Desk -- 811.54 H858m 2003
Nest / Mei-mei Berssenbrugge. Berssenbrugge, Mei-mei, 1947- Reserve-Circulation Desk -- 811.54 B53n 2003 --
Tuesday, February 24, 2004
Thanks for the heads up on the Scalapino book (Considering how exaggerated music is), Scott. I liked it so much I had to stop reading it, lest my brain become more infested than it already is. I really dig her definition of poetry as “non-commercial writing,” it’s the only one I’ve ever heard that makes sense.
Jessea, when I say that things don’t happen in the Faerie Qveene I am only suggesting that in my reading of it the text becomes physically unstable. What I think I mean by that is that so much happens in that poem. It is huge. And the sheer presence of these events begin to cancel each other out just pages into the book. It is what has always drawn me to Spenser, along with his spelling. And the fact that he basically dismisses and “deep” level of allegory, to some extent in his letter to Raleigh. Most of all, the text deforms throughout—sections are drawn into sections of sections of pictures of characters who aren’t characters or the mere antithesis of a character, Gawain, who freaks out at the end of his story (I hope I am not mixing names up) and kind of subverts his whole ideal, Brittomartis, whose section I don’t even begin to comprehend. All these things play out and challenge my reading styles, reading conceptions, and other reading related things I do not know of.
No logical answers to things. I think this is interesting because on working on these logical poems, it seems as if people might not want to read it as such, that easy reading can be immediately taken as why is this easy reading. I think this is especially interesting. I know at least me, when I read something that seems easy (not like easy) it does draw questions to the foreground, as opposed with something “complicated” which leaves me in a beautiful state of bewilderment. I read Blanchot, especially “the step not beyond,” which flip flops between extremely complicated ideas and structures to simple dialogue, and am lost but there is something simple about that, too, being lost. Something nice about it. But what is the middle ground to that equation?
Scott, if you see this tonight are you facilitating Dan tomorrow?
I don’t know if it was our class that we were talking about page vs. performance, but I have been listening to a lot of rap and this band Cannibal Ox has some of the most messed up lyrics every, weird abstract etc. Think it goes in with the rhyme thing to, because I think it works with music and a really rhythmic reading, plus messing up the beats and almost overemphasizing the rhyme and staying with it. Anybody have those rhyme books we were talking about in class?
“Jesus on the crucifix. Scream phoenix.
Birds of the same feather flock together.
(incomprehensible)
My feathers and flames are one skin.
Hallowed be the name. In the beginning there was no sin.
We in the ninth inning, and I’m guard(?) body trying to win.
Flying against the wind. But now my shell is weightless and fire proof.
But the truth is I’m proof of living fire.
I’m not made of organics, not even wires.”
Just felt my body light up and heard the choir.
Jessea, when I say that things don’t happen in the Faerie Qveene I am only suggesting that in my reading of it the text becomes physically unstable. What I think I mean by that is that so much happens in that poem. It is huge. And the sheer presence of these events begin to cancel each other out just pages into the book. It is what has always drawn me to Spenser, along with his spelling. And the fact that he basically dismisses and “deep” level of allegory, to some extent in his letter to Raleigh. Most of all, the text deforms throughout—sections are drawn into sections of sections of pictures of characters who aren’t characters or the mere antithesis of a character, Gawain, who freaks out at the end of his story (I hope I am not mixing names up) and kind of subverts his whole ideal, Brittomartis, whose section I don’t even begin to comprehend. All these things play out and challenge my reading styles, reading conceptions, and other reading related things I do not know of.
No logical answers to things. I think this is interesting because on working on these logical poems, it seems as if people might not want to read it as such, that easy reading can be immediately taken as why is this easy reading. I think this is especially interesting. I know at least me, when I read something that seems easy (not like easy) it does draw questions to the foreground, as opposed with something “complicated” which leaves me in a beautiful state of bewilderment. I read Blanchot, especially “the step not beyond,” which flip flops between extremely complicated ideas and structures to simple dialogue, and am lost but there is something simple about that, too, being lost. Something nice about it. But what is the middle ground to that equation?
Scott, if you see this tonight are you facilitating Dan tomorrow?
I don’t know if it was our class that we were talking about page vs. performance, but I have been listening to a lot of rap and this band Cannibal Ox has some of the most messed up lyrics every, weird abstract etc. Think it goes in with the rhyme thing to, because I think it works with music and a really rhythmic reading, plus messing up the beats and almost overemphasizing the rhyme and staying with it. Anybody have those rhyme books we were talking about in class?
“Jesus on the crucifix. Scream phoenix.
Birds of the same feather flock together.
(incomprehensible)
My feathers and flames are one skin.
Hallowed be the name. In the beginning there was no sin.
We in the ninth inning, and I’m guard(?) body trying to win.
Flying against the wind. But now my shell is weightless and fire proof.
But the truth is I’m proof of living fire.
I’m not made of organics, not even wires.”
Just felt my body light up and heard the choir.
miscellany
william sez: 'So now, I view the “project” as being most of the things said in class: subverting the “poetic” reading experience, expressing a purely suburban landscape, and more lately creating a poetic space through the reading that is unique because of its brevity, you can’t latch on to it necessarily. Most of all, I wanted to speak directly to the reader, having a communication that is “talk.” Yes, they are reactions against what I was writing last semester. I don’t know, maybe later I will try this again.'
This is really clear & I think you've achieved it for sure. I am not so clear on the Faerie Queene / "things don't happen" stuff. Are you talking about perception creating the reality, the lack of absolute truths, that kind of stuff? Throw a bone here.
As to Padcha's argument for philosophy earlier--you mention that you study philosophy because it promises you answers to Big Questions. I think I believe Howe when she writes that poetry must pick up where philosophy leaves off--because in my experience w/philosophy we always end up not really knowing what the hell is going on. In my experience, in the end, there aren't any logical answers to things. What's that Kristin line? "Now, we can build with hollow stones"??? Something like that. That's a good answer.
Regarding my poem fun suggestion, I solemnly swear not to be mean.
I'm in for Meg's idea but I don't know about the Renaissance..
william sez: 'So now, I view the “project” as being most of the things said in class: subverting the “poetic” reading experience, expressing a purely suburban landscape, and more lately creating a poetic space through the reading that is unique because of its brevity, you can’t latch on to it necessarily. Most of all, I wanted to speak directly to the reader, having a communication that is “talk.” Yes, they are reactions against what I was writing last semester. I don’t know, maybe later I will try this again.'
This is really clear & I think you've achieved it for sure. I am not so clear on the Faerie Queene / "things don't happen" stuff. Are you talking about perception creating the reality, the lack of absolute truths, that kind of stuff? Throw a bone here.
As to Padcha's argument for philosophy earlier--you mention that you study philosophy because it promises you answers to Big Questions. I think I believe Howe when she writes that poetry must pick up where philosophy leaves off--because in my experience w/philosophy we always end up not really knowing what the hell is going on. In my experience, in the end, there aren't any logical answers to things. What's that Kristin line? "Now, we can build with hollow stones"??? Something like that. That's a good answer.
Regarding my poem fun suggestion, I solemnly swear not to be mean.
I'm in for Meg's idea but I don't know about the Renaissance..
mostly responding to meg right now:
-june jordan's poetry for the people, who first taught me what a poem was/does, the overtly political/slam type poetry workshop at ucberkeley often use the newspaper as inspiration for poems.
-tho' i think her/yer pursuit of obsession and inspiration is good, i feel as though my path has been rather the opposite writing in my own vacum trying to find my voice, at least my tendencies until i couldn't stand the voices from my mouth/head anymore and needed other influences. although i can be rather maleable, i like that i grounded myself in myself first then looked to grad.school to give me influences and open me up to more possibilities. i've gotta dance but wanna finish these thoughts not too much later hopefully.
-june jordan's poetry for the people, who first taught me what a poem was/does, the overtly political/slam type poetry workshop at ucberkeley often use the newspaper as inspiration for poems.
-tho' i think her/yer pursuit of obsession and inspiration is good, i feel as though my path has been rather the opposite writing in my own vacum trying to find my voice, at least my tendencies until i couldn't stand the voices from my mouth/head anymore and needed other influences. although i can be rather maleable, i like that i grounded myself in myself first then looked to grad.school to give me influences and open me up to more possibilities. i've gotta dance but wanna finish these thoughts not too much later hopefully.
i'm in for Jessea (just promise not to be mean!) and i'll get back to Meg. It sounds great; i just need to be more sure about the summer before can commit to it.
I was glad to read that newspaper article. I'm curious as to what's happening in the poetry world beyond our borders. I think it's odd that we don't look there for inspiration much at all. I feel like it's a continuation of this theme we're taught all through school- something about American culture/history as being all that really matters to us as Americans.
I’m still interested in this question of influence. For me it’s always been a tough one to answer. I think school is great in that it exposes me to hoards of poets that I might not have found on my own. But I also feel as though school makes it difficult to really hone in on one poet and think about their work and break down their ideas. We spend one week on one poet and then move on. There is so much to read that becoming obsessed with one writer is difficult. So I wonder if the real influencing isn’t going to happen until I’m outside of such a structured environment- when I’m reading by myself or maybe in a small group and staying with one poet long enough to really learn a lot from them. School then serves the purpose of exposure. I don’t feel like I’m obsessed with any one writer right now- but I want to be.
What exactly does it mean to be influenced? I want it to mean something greater (for myself) than it does at present. At present I think my work resembles or feeds off of certain poets but it would be difficult to break down how exactly and why. I want to be more conscious of where my work finds itself in history because it seems possible to just hop on the bandwagon without taking a good look around. By that I mean doing what you do without realizing why or how it became possible for you to do that.
Last semester in the craft class on the first night, we mapped out how we got to be this way- in other words, where did our writing lives begin and how did they arrive at the present. I feel like those exercises always expose me as the liar I’m trying not to be. I feel fairly well read (well, from the late 18th century on, I guess that’s really a drop in the bucket) in the world of poetry, but still feel self conscious about claiming influences beyond the teachers I’ve known- but even then not so much because of what they wrote, but what we talked about. I think I’m ready to hone in. But who? Someone dead? Someone nearly dead? Or some sprightly young duck? I think I’ve been waiting and waiting around for someone whose work sweeps me off my feet, but I’m not sure that’s ever going to happen. It seems more like a slow accumulation of respect. I feel like if I really want to hone in, I have to make a conscious decision and start digging.
On another note: I’ve been thinking about a summer project and all who are interested should become a part. I want to read an era- or get started at least- that we probably won’t cover here at Mills. I think I’m most interested in The Renaissance. (William- I know you’ve been reading up already.) So I guess that means John Donne, Rabelais, Ben Johnson, Spenser, Christopher Marlowe, Henry Vaughan etc. I’d like to get a list of books, and create a rough timeline for reading them, then maybe create a blog where we can talk. Or if there’s only a couple of us- even letters would be fun. I think I need a partner in order to get through some of this stuff, an ongoing conversation…
I’m still interested in this question of influence. For me it’s always been a tough one to answer. I think school is great in that it exposes me to hoards of poets that I might not have found on my own. But I also feel as though school makes it difficult to really hone in on one poet and think about their work and break down their ideas. We spend one week on one poet and then move on. There is so much to read that becoming obsessed with one writer is difficult. So I wonder if the real influencing isn’t going to happen until I’m outside of such a structured environment- when I’m reading by myself or maybe in a small group and staying with one poet long enough to really learn a lot from them. School then serves the purpose of exposure. I don’t feel like I’m obsessed with any one writer right now- but I want to be.
What exactly does it mean to be influenced? I want it to mean something greater (for myself) than it does at present. At present I think my work resembles or feeds off of certain poets but it would be difficult to break down how exactly and why. I want to be more conscious of where my work finds itself in history because it seems possible to just hop on the bandwagon without taking a good look around. By that I mean doing what you do without realizing why or how it became possible for you to do that.
Last semester in the craft class on the first night, we mapped out how we got to be this way- in other words, where did our writing lives begin and how did they arrive at the present. I feel like those exercises always expose me as the liar I’m trying not to be. I feel fairly well read (well, from the late 18th century on, I guess that’s really a drop in the bucket) in the world of poetry, but still feel self conscious about claiming influences beyond the teachers I’ve known- but even then not so much because of what they wrote, but what we talked about. I think I’m ready to hone in. But who? Someone dead? Someone nearly dead? Or some sprightly young duck? I think I’ve been waiting and waiting around for someone whose work sweeps me off my feet, but I’m not sure that’s ever going to happen. It seems more like a slow accumulation of respect. I feel like if I really want to hone in, I have to make a conscious decision and start digging.
On another note: I’ve been thinking about a summer project and all who are interested should become a part. I want to read an era- or get started at least- that we probably won’t cover here at Mills. I think I’m most interested in The Renaissance. (William- I know you’ve been reading up already.) So I guess that means John Donne, Rabelais, Ben Johnson, Spenser, Christopher Marlowe, Henry Vaughan etc. I’d like to get a list of books, and create a rough timeline for reading them, then maybe create a blog where we can talk. Or if there’s only a couple of us- even letters would be fun. I think I need a partner in order to get through some of this stuff, an ongoing conversation…
Monday, February 23, 2004
thoughts coming in little bits
..so expect more short posts.
ok, so i just had this idea. you know how it's really fun to respond creatively to each others' work, but we're not supposed to get greedy and guilty and steal the work and make it ours? what about going with that?
what about a poem response project, where someone writes a poem, then everyone gets to creatively respond but it's still theirs? would anyone be interested in this? sort of epistolary thievery fun? we could have a separate email list or blog for it.
..so expect more short posts.
ok, so i just had this idea. you know how it's really fun to respond creatively to each others' work, but we're not supposed to get greedy and guilty and steal the work and make it ours? what about going with that?
what about a poem response project, where someone writes a poem, then everyone gets to creatively respond but it's still theirs? would anyone be interested in this? sort of epistolary thievery fun? we could have a separate email list or blog for it.
http://www.dgdclynx.plus.com/lynx/lynx39.html
a prynne poem..
if he is weird then we're aliens speaking in code, no, whispering. backwards.
a prynne poem..
if he is weird then we're aliens speaking in code, no, whispering. backwards.
William and I looked up J H Prynne. We agree that he's weird. Massive volumn of work, though.
I haven't done anything stunningly worth-blogging this week. Having read the book, I look forward to Trong Tran's visit. I've looked up more on Stein. I am going to read more Stein this semester. I have always wanted to write about her, so it's going to be my paper for the Modern American poetry class. So far, my plan includes (and definitely not limited to) giving a grammatical reading of Stein. I think her main clauses will be pretty straightforward.... !!
I haven't done anything stunningly worth-blogging this week. Having read the book, I look forward to Trong Tran's visit. I've looked up more on Stein. I am going to read more Stein this semester. I have always wanted to write about her, so it's going to be my paper for the Modern American poetry class. So far, my plan includes (and definitely not limited to) giving a grammatical reading of Stein. I think her main clauses will be pretty straightforward.... !!
ENGLISH POETRY POLITICS....
(got this via email from keston sutherland; was in the times)
February 22, 2004
Oxbridge split by the baffling bard
Maurice Chittenden
LATE at night a man sits writing verse in a deserted Cambridge college
library before heading home with his latest work in the basket of his
bicycle. Could this really be Britain's greatest living poet? The belated
"discovery" of J H Prynne, a bard who usually sells his work in pamphlets
with print runs of no more than 500, has split the worlds of academia and
poetry.
A new volume of the Oxford English Literary History, intended as a
definitive account of our written heritage, dismisses the "lingering
languor" of Philip Larkin and the movement poets of the 1950s.
In contrast Prynne, a 67-year-old don and chief librarian at Gonville &
Caius college, is hailed as an important influence on modern poets, more
than 40 years after he first dipped into what he calls "the great aquarium
of the language" to deliver his first verse.
The problem for many who read Prynne is that the words seem to swim over
the page with no decipherable meaning. His abstract work contrasts with the
more straightforward style of poets such as Larkin.
However, Randall Stevenson, reader in English literature at Edinburgh
University and author of the new Oxford volume, 1960-2000: The Last of
England?, writes that Prynne's "full significance for the period's poetry
began to be realised only at the end of the century".
Prynne, an engineer's son originally from Kent, is rewarded with a full
bibliography of his works at the end of the book while writers including
Andrew Motion, the poet laureate, and Muriel Spark, the novelist, are
ignored.
The claims for Prynne's greatness have divided dons. Some have likened the
row to the "ancients versus moderns" dispute aroused by the emergence of
Jonathan Swift's satirical works in the 18th century. Others speak of a
resurrection of the "curse of Ohel", the acronym for Oxford History of
English Literature.
James Fenton, the former professor of poetry at Oxford, once asked in a
poem: "Jeremy Prynne, Jeremy Prynne, isn't your oeuvre rather thynne? Don't
hit me with your rolling pynne."
But Stevenson, who says that the late Ted Hughes is the pre-eminent poet of
the late 20th century, said last week: "Prynne is an important influence on
English literature. I think speaking well of him is a scar to wear with
pride."
John Carey, former Merton professor of English literature at Oxford, who
gives the volume a scathing review in the Sunday Times books section this
week, accuses Stevenson of favouring the extreme violence and cruelty of
radical socialist playwrights of the 1960s and early 1970s. He said: "The
notion that Prynne is elevated in this way is bizarre. Such a dismal
assessment of Larkin is really unfair."
John Sutherland, professor of modern English literature at University
College London, recalled that the author Peter Ackroyd had once sent the
late Stephen Spender a pamphlet of Prynne's verse, saying: "It can be
called a gift, but hardly a present."
Sutherland added: "Prynne is incomprehensible, but he does have his
admirers who say he is interesting and on the edge."
Some poets are similarly baffled. Motion said: "Prynne divides the
poetry-reading community into a large number of people who find him
impenetrable and/or dull, and a much smaller number who think he's the
bee's knees. I've read him and been impressed by his integrity and
erudition -- but he's not someone I return to."
U A Fanthorpe, the poet who is criticised in The Last of England? for
failing to be innovative, said: "I have heard Prynne read and found him
hard to follow. I don't think being innovative is the big thing."
Roger McGough, the former member of the 1960s band Scaffold, who is praised
in the new volume for challenging convention, said: "I find Larkin very
accessible. Whether you go along with the doom and gloom, the message is
clear. Prynne I do find difficult."
Cambridge academics are similarly divided. Sir Frank Kermode, a former King
Edward VII professor, said: "He is a very friendly colleague but I have not
been able to make a great deal of his work. I don't understand why there
has to be a confrontation between him and Larkin. Why can't people like
them both?" Rod Mengham of Jesus College, a poet who has published some of
Prynne's pamphlets, said: "Many of us here are fans of his work."
Prynne usually shuns interviews and refuses to be photographed for the
sleeves of his books. This weekend he was bemused by all the excitement.
Interrupting a discussion with students at Gonville & Caius, he said: "It
doesn't surprise me in the least that some people do not understand my
poetry. Certainly it has not made me a rich man."
(got this via email from keston sutherland; was in the times)
February 22, 2004
Oxbridge split by the baffling bard
Maurice Chittenden
LATE at night a man sits writing verse in a deserted Cambridge college
library before heading home with his latest work in the basket of his
bicycle. Could this really be Britain's greatest living poet? The belated
"discovery" of J H Prynne, a bard who usually sells his work in pamphlets
with print runs of no more than 500, has split the worlds of academia and
poetry.
A new volume of the Oxford English Literary History, intended as a
definitive account of our written heritage, dismisses the "lingering
languor" of Philip Larkin and the movement poets of the 1950s.
In contrast Prynne, a 67-year-old don and chief librarian at Gonville &
Caius college, is hailed as an important influence on modern poets, more
than 40 years after he first dipped into what he calls "the great aquarium
of the language" to deliver his first verse.
The problem for many who read Prynne is that the words seem to swim over
the page with no decipherable meaning. His abstract work contrasts with the
more straightforward style of poets such as Larkin.
However, Randall Stevenson, reader in English literature at Edinburgh
University and author of the new Oxford volume, 1960-2000: The Last of
England?, writes that Prynne's "full significance for the period's poetry
began to be realised only at the end of the century".
Prynne, an engineer's son originally from Kent, is rewarded with a full
bibliography of his works at the end of the book while writers including
Andrew Motion, the poet laureate, and Muriel Spark, the novelist, are
ignored.
The claims for Prynne's greatness have divided dons. Some have likened the
row to the "ancients versus moderns" dispute aroused by the emergence of
Jonathan Swift's satirical works in the 18th century. Others speak of a
resurrection of the "curse of Ohel", the acronym for Oxford History of
English Literature.
James Fenton, the former professor of poetry at Oxford, once asked in a
poem: "Jeremy Prynne, Jeremy Prynne, isn't your oeuvre rather thynne? Don't
hit me with your rolling pynne."
But Stevenson, who says that the late Ted Hughes is the pre-eminent poet of
the late 20th century, said last week: "Prynne is an important influence on
English literature. I think speaking well of him is a scar to wear with
pride."
John Carey, former Merton professor of English literature at Oxford, who
gives the volume a scathing review in the Sunday Times books section this
week, accuses Stevenson of favouring the extreme violence and cruelty of
radical socialist playwrights of the 1960s and early 1970s. He said: "The
notion that Prynne is elevated in this way is bizarre. Such a dismal
assessment of Larkin is really unfair."
John Sutherland, professor of modern English literature at University
College London, recalled that the author Peter Ackroyd had once sent the
late Stephen Spender a pamphlet of Prynne's verse, saying: "It can be
called a gift, but hardly a present."
Sutherland added: "Prynne is incomprehensible, but he does have his
admirers who say he is interesting and on the edge."
Some poets are similarly baffled. Motion said: "Prynne divides the
poetry-reading community into a large number of people who find him
impenetrable and/or dull, and a much smaller number who think he's the
bee's knees. I've read him and been impressed by his integrity and
erudition -- but he's not someone I return to."
U A Fanthorpe, the poet who is criticised in The Last of England? for
failing to be innovative, said: "I have heard Prynne read and found him
hard to follow. I don't think being innovative is the big thing."
Roger McGough, the former member of the 1960s band Scaffold, who is praised
in the new volume for challenging convention, said: "I find Larkin very
accessible. Whether you go along with the doom and gloom, the message is
clear. Prynne I do find difficult."
Cambridge academics are similarly divided. Sir Frank Kermode, a former King
Edward VII professor, said: "He is a very friendly colleague but I have not
been able to make a great deal of his work. I don't understand why there
has to be a confrontation between him and Larkin. Why can't people like
them both?" Rod Mengham of Jesus College, a poet who has published some of
Prynne's pamphlets, said: "Many of us here are fans of his work."
Prynne usually shuns interviews and refuses to be photographed for the
sleeves of his books. This weekend he was bemused by all the excitement.
Interrupting a discussion with students at Gonville & Caius, he said: "It
doesn't surprise me in the least that some people do not understand my
poetry. Certainly it has not made me a rich man."
Friday, February 20, 2004
More of Spenser explaining myself:
The wizard could no lenger beare her bord,
But brusting forth in laughter, to her sayd;
Glauce, what needes this colourable word,
To cloke the cause, that hath it selfe bewrayd?
The joyous birdes shrouded in chearefull shade,
Their notes vnto the voice attempted sweet;
Th’Angelicall soft trembling voices made
To th’instruments diuine respondence meet:
The siluer sounding instruments did meet
With the base murmure of the waters fall:
The waters fall with difference discreet,
Now soft, now loud, vnto the wind did call:
The gentle warbling wind low answered to all.
To the right noble and valorous knight, Sir Walter Raleigh, Lo. Wardein of the Stanneryes, and lieftenaunt of Cornewaile.
TO thee that art the sommers Nightingale.
Thy souraine Goddesses most deare delight,
Why doe I send this rustic Madrigale,
That may thy tunefull eare vnseason quite?
Thou only fit this Argument to write,
In whose high thoughts Pleasure hath built her bowre,
And dainty loue learned sweetly to endite.
My rimes I know vnsauory and sowre,
To tast the streames, that like a golden showre
Flow from thy fruitfull head, of thy loues praise,
Fitter perhaps to thonder Maritiall stowre,
When so thee list thy lofty Muse to raise:
Yet till that thou thy Poeme wilt make knowne,
Let thy faire Cinthias praises bee thus rudely showne.
The wizard could no lenger beare her bord,
But brusting forth in laughter, to her sayd;
Glauce, what needes this colourable word,
To cloke the cause, that hath it selfe bewrayd?
The joyous birdes shrouded in chearefull shade,
Their notes vnto the voice attempted sweet;
Th’Angelicall soft trembling voices made
To th’instruments diuine respondence meet:
The siluer sounding instruments did meet
With the base murmure of the waters fall:
The waters fall with difference discreet,
Now soft, now loud, vnto the wind did call:
The gentle warbling wind low answered to all.
To the right noble and valorous knight, Sir Walter Raleigh, Lo. Wardein of the Stanneryes, and lieftenaunt of Cornewaile.
TO thee that art the sommers Nightingale.
Thy souraine Goddesses most deare delight,
Why doe I send this rustic Madrigale,
That may thy tunefull eare vnseason quite?
Thou only fit this Argument to write,
In whose high thoughts Pleasure hath built her bowre,
And dainty loue learned sweetly to endite.
My rimes I know vnsauory and sowre,
To tast the streames, that like a golden showre
Flow from thy fruitfull head, of thy loues praise,
Fitter perhaps to thonder Maritiall stowre,
When so thee list thy lofty Muse to raise:
Yet till that thou thy Poeme wilt make knowne,
Let thy faire Cinthias praises bee thus rudely showne.
“The Project”
for Jessea
I don’t think things happen. Things happen, but that is beside the point if I am to make that argument. So things don’t happen. Things don’t happen in these poems. I mean, things happen in these poems, but they don’t. They are over before they happen. I have been getting this idea of a poetic space around the aural/oral(?) perception of the poem, that that is it, what is happening, not things. And then all of them together, a bunch of them start conversing with each other and almost alluding to some overall thing that perhaps is not available.
What had seemed to last for weeks actually only went on for about a day however it was not until someone
transcribed the events that everything fell into its proper chronological order
To go back to Spenser for the first time, nothing really happens in the Faerie Qveene. I mean, the knights do stuff, they go places, they learn perhaps, but those are all beside the point or points. The Faerie Qveene draws my attention not to the writing and the story, but to the writing of the story. It is surreal.
Now that I think about it, my poetic statement is Spenser’s letter to Raleigh concerning The Faerie Qveene:
“I haue thought good aswell fo audying of gealous opinions and misconstructions, as also for your better light in reading thereof, to discouer vnto you the general intention and meaning, which in the whole course thereof I haue fashioned, without expressing of any particular purposes or by-accidents therein occasioned. Which for that I conceiued shoulde be the most plausible and pleasing, being colored with an historical fiction, the which the most part of men delight to read, rather for variety of matter, than for profite of ensample.
he had learned the symbols the ideas held in a box held back from the individual a chain of events that are truly taken for granted taken for rote disapproval in the form of accepting the periodic strategies of the mind of the mind in psychosis Smacktrick had attempted to discuss this before he had said that everything in a coordinate plane can be mapped that the chance Thomas Grantwhich now a mere ideal was able to act in shells of activity was not only conforming to but also
even with the idea of a shell the smooth curve associated with plant life with the naturally sublime Thomas was a single observer He was only bound by a specific attraction to pine trees that would pass slowly as he traversed the thing the thing that was his effective relation to his own society it had to stop
If you haven’t realized, I am having a hard time.
…nothingness, or to put another way, dailyness that at least in this series I am trying to express.
This is another large-scale problem for me, theory vs. output, because I think for the most part they are in direct opposition with each other no matter how hard I try or don’t.
The instructions started out as a funny, paradoxical poem. Then another one, and I had broad ideas. They were to be boring, uneventful. But every poem sort of changed my outlook and gave me more ideas about what I thought I was doing.
So now, I view the “project” as being most of the things said in class: subverting the “poetic” reading experience, expressing a purely suburban landscape, and more lately creating a poetic space through the reading that is unique because of its brevity, you can’t latch on to it necessarily. Most of all, I wanted to speak directly to the reader, having a communication that is “talk.” Yes, they are reactions against what I was writing last semester. I don’t know, maybe later I will try this again.
chess is the ultimate poetry.
for Jessea
I don’t think things happen. Things happen, but that is beside the point if I am to make that argument. So things don’t happen. Things don’t happen in these poems. I mean, things happen in these poems, but they don’t. They are over before they happen. I have been getting this idea of a poetic space around the aural/oral(?) perception of the poem, that that is it, what is happening, not things. And then all of them together, a bunch of them start conversing with each other and almost alluding to some overall thing that perhaps is not available.
What had seemed to last for weeks actually only went on for about a day however it was not until someone
transcribed the events that everything fell into its proper chronological order
To go back to Spenser for the first time, nothing really happens in the Faerie Qveene. I mean, the knights do stuff, they go places, they learn perhaps, but those are all beside the point or points. The Faerie Qveene draws my attention not to the writing and the story, but to the writing of the story. It is surreal.
Now that I think about it, my poetic statement is Spenser’s letter to Raleigh concerning The Faerie Qveene:
“I haue thought good aswell fo audying of gealous opinions and misconstructions, as also for your better light in reading thereof, to discouer vnto you the general intention and meaning, which in the whole course thereof I haue fashioned, without expressing of any particular purposes or by-accidents therein occasioned. Which for that I conceiued shoulde be the most plausible and pleasing, being colored with an historical fiction, the which the most part of men delight to read, rather for variety of matter, than for profite of ensample.
he had learned the symbols the ideas held in a box held back from the individual a chain of events that are truly taken for granted taken for rote disapproval in the form of accepting the periodic strategies of the mind of the mind in psychosis Smacktrick had attempted to discuss this before he had said that everything in a coordinate plane can be mapped that the chance Thomas Grantwhich now a mere ideal was able to act in shells of activity was not only conforming to but also
even with the idea of a shell the smooth curve associated with plant life with the naturally sublime Thomas was a single observer He was only bound by a specific attraction to pine trees that would pass slowly as he traversed the thing the thing that was his effective relation to his own society it had to stop
If you haven’t realized, I am having a hard time.
…nothingness, or to put another way, dailyness that at least in this series I am trying to express.
This is another large-scale problem for me, theory vs. output, because I think for the most part they are in direct opposition with each other no matter how hard I try or don’t.
The instructions started out as a funny, paradoxical poem. Then another one, and I had broad ideas. They were to be boring, uneventful. But every poem sort of changed my outlook and gave me more ideas about what I thought I was doing.
So now, I view the “project” as being most of the things said in class: subverting the “poetic” reading experience, expressing a purely suburban landscape, and more lately creating a poetic space through the reading that is unique because of its brevity, you can’t latch on to it necessarily. Most of all, I wanted to speak directly to the reader, having a communication that is “talk.” Yes, they are reactions against what I was writing last semester. I don’t know, maybe later I will try this again.
chess is the ultimate poetry.
“The Project”
for Jessea
I don’t think things happen. Things happen, but that is beside the point if I am to make that argument. So things don’t happen. Things don’t happen in these poems. I mean, things happen in these poems, but they don’t. They are over before they happen. I have been getting this idea of a poetic space around the aural/oral(?) perception of the poem, that that is it, what is happening, not things. And then all of them together, a bunch of them start conversing with each other and almost alluding to some overall thing that perhaps is not available.
What had seemed to last for weeks actually only went on for about a day however it was not until someone
transcribed the events that everything fell into its proper chronological order
To go back to Spenser for the first time, nothing really happens in the Faerie Qveene. I mean, the knights do stuff, they go places, they learn perhaps, but those are all beside the point or points. The Faerie Qveene draws my attention not to the writing and the story, but to the writing of the story. It is surreal.
What had seemed to last for weeks actually only went on for about a day however it was not until someone
transcribed the events that everything fell into its proper chronological order
Now that I think about it, my poetic statement is Spenser’s letter to Raleigh concerning The Faerie Qveene:
“I haue thought good aswell fo audying of gealous opinions and misconstructions, as also for your better light in reading thereof, to discouer vnto you the general intention and meaning, which in the whole course thereof I haue fashioned, without expressing of any particular purposes or by-accidents therein occasioned. Which for that I conceiued shoulde be the most plausible and pleasing, being colored with an historical fiction, the which the most part of men delight to read, rather for variety of matter, than for profite of ensample.
he had learned the symbols the ideas held in a box held back from the individual a chain of events that are truly taken for granted taken for rote disapproval in the form of accepting the periodic strategies of the mind of the mind in psychosis Smacktrick had attempted to discuss this before he had said that everything in a coordinate plane can be mapped that the chance Thomas Grantwhich now a mere ideal was able to act in shells of activity was not only conforming to but also
even with the idea of a shell the smooth curve associated with plant life with the naturally sublime Thomas was a single observer He was only bound by a specific attraction to pine trees that would pass slowly as he traversed the thing the thing that was his effective relation to his own society it had to stop
If you haven’t realized, I am having a hard time.
…nothingness, or to put another way, dailyness that at least in this series I am trying to express.
This is another large-scale problem for me, theory vs. output, because I think for the most part they are in direct opposition with each other no matter how hard I try or don’t.
The instructions started out as a funny, paradoxical poem. Then another one, and I had broad ideas. They were to be boring, uneventful. But every poem sort of changed my outlook and gave me more ideas about what I thought I was doing.
So now, I view the “project” as being most of the things said in class: subverting the “poetic” reading experience, expressing a purely suburban landscape, and more lately creating a poetic space through the reading that is unique because of its brevity, you can’t latch on to it necessarily. Most of all, I wanted to speak directly to the reader, having a communication that is “talk.” Yes, they are reactions against what I was writing last semester. I don’t know, maybe later I will try this again.
chess is the ultimate poetry.
for Jessea
I don’t think things happen. Things happen, but that is beside the point if I am to make that argument. So things don’t happen. Things don’t happen in these poems. I mean, things happen in these poems, but they don’t. They are over before they happen. I have been getting this idea of a poetic space around the aural/oral(?) perception of the poem, that that is it, what is happening, not things. And then all of them together, a bunch of them start conversing with each other and almost alluding to some overall thing that perhaps is not available.
What had seemed to last for weeks actually only went on for about a day however it was not until someone
transcribed the events that everything fell into its proper chronological order
To go back to Spenser for the first time, nothing really happens in the Faerie Qveene. I mean, the knights do stuff, they go places, they learn perhaps, but those are all beside the point or points. The Faerie Qveene draws my attention not to the writing and the story, but to the writing of the story. It is surreal.
What had seemed to last for weeks actually only went on for about a day however it was not until someone
transcribed the events that everything fell into its proper chronological order
Now that I think about it, my poetic statement is Spenser’s letter to Raleigh concerning The Faerie Qveene:
“I haue thought good aswell fo audying of gealous opinions and misconstructions, as also for your better light in reading thereof, to discouer vnto you the general intention and meaning, which in the whole course thereof I haue fashioned, without expressing of any particular purposes or by-accidents therein occasioned. Which for that I conceiued shoulde be the most plausible and pleasing, being colored with an historical fiction, the which the most part of men delight to read, rather for variety of matter, than for profite of ensample.
he had learned the symbols the ideas held in a box held back from the individual a chain of events that are truly taken for granted taken for rote disapproval in the form of accepting the periodic strategies of the mind of the mind in psychosis Smacktrick had attempted to discuss this before he had said that everything in a coordinate plane can be mapped that the chance Thomas Grantwhich now a mere ideal was able to act in shells of activity was not only conforming to but also
even with the idea of a shell the smooth curve associated with plant life with the naturally sublime Thomas was a single observer He was only bound by a specific attraction to pine trees that would pass slowly as he traversed the thing the thing that was his effective relation to his own society it had to stop
If you haven’t realized, I am having a hard time.
…nothingness, or to put another way, dailyness that at least in this series I am trying to express.
This is another large-scale problem for me, theory vs. output, because I think for the most part they are in direct opposition with each other no matter how hard I try or don’t.
The instructions started out as a funny, paradoxical poem. Then another one, and I had broad ideas. They were to be boring, uneventful. But every poem sort of changed my outlook and gave me more ideas about what I thought I was doing.
So now, I view the “project” as being most of the things said in class: subverting the “poetic” reading experience, expressing a purely suburban landscape, and more lately creating a poetic space through the reading that is unique because of its brevity, you can’t latch on to it necessarily. Most of all, I wanted to speak directly to the reader, having a communication that is “talk.” Yes, they are reactions against what I was writing last semester. I don’t know, maybe later I will try this again.
chess is the ultimate poetry.
Thursday, February 19, 2004
Regarding some of my earlier questions about positioning, I don't mean to be hard on Yedda, but I did think it was interesting that someone else in the class picked up on the same comment and had similar questions about it (if that unnamed person wants to weigh in on this -- perhaps when he's finished unpacking (clothes, not pears) -- I'd be interested to hear his take on this). I think my insistence on questioning her experience says more about me as a reader/natural born (actually, academic-bred) cynic than anything else, but as a writer who is also dealing with issues of class/race/identity I am always intrigued by ways writers handle this issue. But yes, it is important to make the distinction that she brought up her pear packing experience when speaking in our class and that this isn't some type of claim she's making for her book. Really, I wonder more about Coultas, who identifies herself with the Bowery Bums in some small way or, again, the implications of my own writing in which I talk about Detroiters as a unified "we" despite the obvious disparities between my experience there and that of many others.
We shouldn't limit ourselves in what we write about, shouldn't shut down in the face of difficult/sensitive/potentially inflammatory subject matter. But there's a big difference between knowing that intellectually and knowing that emotionally -- what avenues do we close off for ourselves without even realizing it. I agree our "position" needs to be considered carefully, but I also feel like I could think this thing to death and never write about anything except "safe" concerns that nobody could challenge me on. That's the bottom line, I think. As belligerent and big-mouthed as I am, I actually live in great fear of confrontation. Yet I feel a moral imperative to address issues that will unquestionably bring it on (yes, I know, alert the Nobel Prize committee).
I am really having trouble articulating myself today, so perhaps I'll continue this later when I can be coherent.
We shouldn't limit ourselves in what we write about, shouldn't shut down in the face of difficult/sensitive/potentially inflammatory subject matter. But there's a big difference between knowing that intellectually and knowing that emotionally -- what avenues do we close off for ourselves without even realizing it. I agree our "position" needs to be considered carefully, but I also feel like I could think this thing to death and never write about anything except "safe" concerns that nobody could challenge me on. That's the bottom line, I think. As belligerent and big-mouthed as I am, I actually live in great fear of confrontation. Yet I feel a moral imperative to address issues that will unquestionably bring it on (yes, I know, alert the Nobel Prize committee).
I am really having trouble articulating myself today, so perhaps I'll continue this later when I can be coherent.
Regarding some of my earlier questions about positioning, I don't mean to be hard on Yedda, but I did think it was interesting that someone else in the class picked up on the same comment and had similar questions about it (if that unnamed person wants to weigh in on this -- perhaps when he's finished unpacking (clothes, not pears) -- I'd be interested to hear his take on this). I think my insistence on questioning her experience says more about me as a reader/natural born (actually, academic-bred) cynic than anything else, but as a writer who is also dealing with issues of class/race/identity I am always intrigued by how handle this issue, handle myself. But yes, it is important to make the distinction that she brought up her pear packing experience when speaking in our class and that this isn't some type of claim she's making for her book.
Absolutely, we shouldn't limit ourselves in what we write about, shouldn't shut down in the face of difficult/sensitive/potentially inflammatory subject matter. But there's a big difference between knowing that intellectually and knowing that emotionally -- what avenues do we close off for ourselves without even realizing it. I agree our "position" needs to be considered carefully, but I also feel like I could think this thing to death and never write about anything except "safe" concerns that nobody could challenge me on. That's the bottom line, I think. As belligerent and big-mouthed as I am, I actually live in great fear of confrontation. Yet I feel a moral imperative to address issues that will unquestionably bring it on.
I am really having trouble articulating myself today, so perhaps I'll continue this later when I can be coherent.
Absolutely, we shouldn't limit ourselves in what we write about, shouldn't shut down in the face of difficult/sensitive/potentially inflammatory subject matter. But there's a big difference between knowing that intellectually and knowing that emotionally -- what avenues do we close off for ourselves without even realizing it. I agree our "position" needs to be considered carefully, but I also feel like I could think this thing to death and never write about anything except "safe" concerns that nobody could challenge me on. That's the bottom line, I think. As belligerent and big-mouthed as I am, I actually live in great fear of confrontation. Yet I feel a moral imperative to address issues that will unquestionably bring it on.
I am really having trouble articulating myself today, so perhaps I'll continue this later when I can be coherent.
one last note...
Joan Retallack's The Poethical Wager should be in the bookstore shortly. It is dense so you might want to get a start on it since you've got the week of the 3rd off.
Joan Retallack's The Poethical Wager should be in the bookstore shortly. It is dense so you might want to get a start on it since you've got the week of the 3rd off.
by the way, last nights reading/discussion by Catalina Cariaga was also really great..(most of you out there missed it) she really knew her stuff, I thought, and her insistence on being present with the work/the community/and really looking/taking on the challenge, struck me. I enjoyed her openness and sureness, and re-read some of her book again this morning, reveling in its brevity (or maybe its lack of frills) and honesty.
Today, first news I read was about Philippino Veteranes of war (American/Japanese) and their plight; US denial of benefits and so forth. Having not met Catalina, I would have paid little attention, and in its own way or as a beginning point, paying attention has as much to do with the 'political' as does writing it, writing out of it, writing in to it. It beats doing 'nothing' as Juliana says responding to Kristin, in writing about Hawaii.
I'm on for the Black Panther's Tour.
I'm on for a beer at the Alley...should we try to make a group exit at half/time (class) to go to Bill's reading? Or is that a taboo...
I'm planning a walk to Albany Bowl on a soon to be announced, Sunday morning.
Any other walks out there? Can each of you interested take the lead and initiate a walk in your neighborhood, surroundings, of interest, etc? Let me know and I'll post a calendar of walks.
Stephan Jost is willing to give us a Wed night at the museum...how about a final 'walk' reading there, sometime at the end of April/or early May? Could possibly include a poet from our community that we are interested in?? Graduate funds??
Anyone thinking of going to the Anniversary reading at SFState's Poetry Center...
including Adrienne Rich, Etal Ednan, Michael Mcclure, Robin Blaser....Saturday night.
Today, first news I read was about Philippino Veteranes of war (American/Japanese) and their plight; US denial of benefits and so forth. Having not met Catalina, I would have paid little attention, and in its own way or as a beginning point, paying attention has as much to do with the 'political' as does writing it, writing out of it, writing in to it. It beats doing 'nothing' as Juliana says responding to Kristin, in writing about Hawaii.
I'm on for the Black Panther's Tour.
I'm on for a beer at the Alley...should we try to make a group exit at half/time (class) to go to Bill's reading? Or is that a taboo...
I'm planning a walk to Albany Bowl on a soon to be announced, Sunday morning.
Any other walks out there? Can each of you interested take the lead and initiate a walk in your neighborhood, surroundings, of interest, etc? Let me know and I'll post a calendar of walks.
Stephan Jost is willing to give us a Wed night at the museum...how about a final 'walk' reading there, sometime at the end of April/or early May? Could possibly include a poet from our community that we are interested in?? Graduate funds??
Anyone thinking of going to the Anniversary reading at SFState's Poetry Center...
including Adrienne Rich, Etal Ednan, Michael Mcclure, Robin Blaser....Saturday night.
NEW WORKSHOP SCHEDULE
3/3
still no class
3/10
JoNelle (Kristen)
Angie (Padcha)
3/17
spring break
3/24
Dennis (William)
Scott (Angie)
3/31
Romney (Dennis)
Kristen (Scott)
4/7
Padcha (Romney)
William (Kristen)
4/14
Jessea (Padcha)
Dan (William)
4/21
Meg (Jessea)
JoNelle (Dan)
4/28
Angie (Meg)
Dennis (JoNelle)
3/3
still no class
3/10
JoNelle (Kristen)
Angie (Padcha)
3/17
spring break
3/24
Dennis (William)
Scott (Angie)
3/31
Romney (Dennis)
Kristen (Scott)
4/7
Padcha (Romney)
William (Kristen)
4/14
Jessea (Padcha)
Dan (William)
4/21
Meg (Jessea)
JoNelle (Dan)
4/28
Angie (Meg)
Dennis (JoNelle)
TRUONG TRAN
reading/workshop
Wednesday, February 25
7 pm
Mills Hall 322
there is absolutely nothing poetic here to see nothing lyrical to hear go home to your families tell they you saw nothing forget what you thought you may have felt or touched language serves no purpose than that of meaning
--Truong Tan, dust and conscience
Truong Tran is the author of three collections of poetry including Placing The Accents, The Book of Perceptions, in which he collaborated with Oakland based organization Huong Viet Community, and dust and conscience which recently received the Poetry Center Book Award. He was born in 1969 in Saigon, Vietnam. He received his undergraduate education at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and his MFA at San Francisco State University. He is the recipient of poetry fellowships from the Arts Council of Santa Clara, the California Arts Council, the Creative Work Fund and The San Franciso Arts Commission. His poems have been published in numerous literary journals including ZYZZYVA, The American Voice, Crazyhorse, Prairie Schooner, Poetry East, ACM (Another Chicago Magazine) and The North Dakota Quarterly. Truong is currently living in the Bay Area and working as Executive Director for Kearny Street Workshop, the oldest Asian American Arts organization in United States.
Series sponsored in part with funds from the Irvine Foundation at Mills College, from 'A 'A Arts, through a grant it has received from the National Endowment for the Arts, and Poets & Writers, Inc, through a grant it has received from the James Irvine Foundation.
reading/workshop
Wednesday, February 25
7 pm
Mills Hall 322
there is absolutely nothing poetic here to see nothing lyrical to hear go home to your families tell they you saw nothing forget what you thought you may have felt or touched language serves no purpose than that of meaning
--Truong Tan, dust and conscience
Truong Tran is the author of three collections of poetry including Placing The Accents, The Book of Perceptions, in which he collaborated with Oakland based organization Huong Viet Community, and dust and conscience which recently received the Poetry Center Book Award. He was born in 1969 in Saigon, Vietnam. He received his undergraduate education at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and his MFA at San Francisco State University. He is the recipient of poetry fellowships from the Arts Council of Santa Clara, the California Arts Council, the Creative Work Fund and The San Franciso Arts Commission. His poems have been published in numerous literary journals including ZYZZYVA, The American Voice, Crazyhorse, Prairie Schooner, Poetry East, ACM (Another Chicago Magazine) and The North Dakota Quarterly. Truong is currently living in the Bay Area and working as Executive Director for Kearny Street Workshop, the oldest Asian American Arts organization in United States.
Series sponsored in part with funds from the Irvine Foundation at Mills College, from 'A 'A Arts, through a grant it has received from the National Endowment for the Arts, and Poets & Writers, Inc, through a grant it has received from the James Irvine Foundation.
hold the date...
Black Panther Tour
March 27
Leaving from West Oakland Public Library
18th and Adeline
$25
Reservations required
The tour is about 2 hours and 45 minutes long, but the recording doesn't give a start time. Kristen will let us know.
Black Panther Tour
March 27
Leaving from West Oakland Public Library
18th and Adeline
$25
Reservations required
The tour is about 2 hours and 45 minutes long, but the recording doesn't give a start time. Kristen will let us know.
kate lilley was super excellent just because the language was funny and dense. something about it was working. i myself couldn't figure it out totally. i was wondering why i was enjoying it so much as i was listening. it made me laugh a lot but not the yuk yuk sort. perhaps example of pure pleasure of play of language.
on kristen's comments... i think you are being too harsh on yedda's work. which i think doesn't claim the biography (this was a comment in class and not a claim made at all in the book). and actually does work on larger, more global issues. which i think is very important. i like her work because it takes on issues very clearly and does not claim a marginality. she doesn't say, as sometimes literature about marginalization/victimization/identity does, that she didn't get enough of the spoils of america.
last night we were talking with catalina about race/class/gender issues in mfa programs. she was talking some about some issues at sfst when she was there. and i was thinking some about some similar moments in hawai'i. the hawai'i moment being when what i felt was a troubling and homophobic story (which i think was just not thought out on part of student; not that it was deliberate on his part) was given a prize by the creative writing program and this was upsetting to me. but i was also thinking about how the answer isn't just to avoid taking on the harder issues of sexuality/race/class/gender by resorting to an ambiguous or personal language. in other words, only talking about one's self/from one's position doesn't let one off these issues.
so i guess, kristen, i want to push you more on the work. what is ok to put in the work and what is not on these issues?
i had to think about this a lot in hawai'i. and i never felt i had _the_ answer. but some things i decided: that even while many people said it was just more colonialism to write about hawai'i when one is not from hawai'i, that to not write about hawai'i's colonial issues was not the solution. that this also was part of the problem. so the question became how to do it. and there were certain things i did not think it would be right to do. like it would not be right for me to write from a hawaiian point of view. or to claim to understand hawaiian culture or religious issues. or to claim that i knew what the right form of sovereignty would be for hawaiians. i don't write fiction, so this one is easy, but i would not write a story with only hawaiian characters or one that took place only in hawaiian communities.
i felt i had to make it clear in the work that i was not from hawai'i. but most importantly, i felt i had to make it clear in the work where i stood on the colonialism issue, that i was against it. and that i supported sovereignty and that it was the right of hawaiians to decide what sorts of government they wanted for their nation.
i would never claim that i avoided the appropriation issue at all. but these were my thoughts on how to negotiate, a negotiation that i always saw as being in progress. and i think that is what this work has to do (this is related some to meg's questions about writing about the mission). i think that one way that writing matters is that it can be a place where one thinks about these issues, thinks about how to talk about these difficult issues. or is written out of these questions.
on kristen's comments... i think you are being too harsh on yedda's work. which i think doesn't claim the biography (this was a comment in class and not a claim made at all in the book). and actually does work on larger, more global issues. which i think is very important. i like her work because it takes on issues very clearly and does not claim a marginality. she doesn't say, as sometimes literature about marginalization/victimization/identity does, that she didn't get enough of the spoils of america.
last night we were talking with catalina about race/class/gender issues in mfa programs. she was talking some about some issues at sfst when she was there. and i was thinking some about some similar moments in hawai'i. the hawai'i moment being when what i felt was a troubling and homophobic story (which i think was just not thought out on part of student; not that it was deliberate on his part) was given a prize by the creative writing program and this was upsetting to me. but i was also thinking about how the answer isn't just to avoid taking on the harder issues of sexuality/race/class/gender by resorting to an ambiguous or personal language. in other words, only talking about one's self/from one's position doesn't let one off these issues.
so i guess, kristen, i want to push you more on the work. what is ok to put in the work and what is not on these issues?
i had to think about this a lot in hawai'i. and i never felt i had _the_ answer. but some things i decided: that even while many people said it was just more colonialism to write about hawai'i when one is not from hawai'i, that to not write about hawai'i's colonial issues was not the solution. that this also was part of the problem. so the question became how to do it. and there were certain things i did not think it would be right to do. like it would not be right for me to write from a hawaiian point of view. or to claim to understand hawaiian culture or religious issues. or to claim that i knew what the right form of sovereignty would be for hawaiians. i don't write fiction, so this one is easy, but i would not write a story with only hawaiian characters or one that took place only in hawaiian communities.
i felt i had to make it clear in the work that i was not from hawai'i. but most importantly, i felt i had to make it clear in the work where i stood on the colonialism issue, that i was against it. and that i supported sovereignty and that it was the right of hawaiians to decide what sorts of government they wanted for their nation.
i would never claim that i avoided the appropriation issue at all. but these were my thoughts on how to negotiate, a negotiation that i always saw as being in progress. and i think that is what this work has to do (this is related some to meg's questions about writing about the mission). i think that one way that writing matters is that it can be a place where one thinks about these issues, thinks about how to talk about these difficult issues. or is written out of these questions.
Wednesday, February 18, 2004
bar, the
this is a reminder that thursday nights are poets interacting at bar nights. we thought we would try out "the alley" in oakland because it's closer than jupiter (which sounds funny, ha ha). so if anyone here wants to come down after bill's reading or stephen's class, or both or neither, do it.
here is info:
9ish pm
the alley
3325 grand ave.
oakland ca
CLICK FOR MAP
this is a reminder that thursday nights are poets interacting at bar nights. we thought we would try out "the alley" in oakland because it's closer than jupiter (which sounds funny, ha ha). so if anyone here wants to come down after bill's reading or stephen's class, or both or neither, do it.
here is info:
9ish pm
the alley
3325 grand ave.
oakland ca
CLICK FOR MAP
sowhatwaso super excellent about the kate lilley reading or better what did we/i miss? if i was a better student i'd have time to do more of these pertinent extracurriculars. anyway, in my brief time with susan howe's "the midnight" since i'm sure i've even less of a clue than padcha has, i generally like it's mix of image, poetry block, and prose to seemingly write her way into another time and bring us the audience as well, admitting it isn't a perfect transcendental narrative (like that Christopher Reeve time travel movie where the year of the penny takes him back) with the shifting dates and language. it makes sense that the prose clarifiesthe clarion in the poetry, which is what i think meg mentions, HOWEver is it also susan simply allowing her research and fictionon writing skills to flourish? I'm wondering if "speaking in tongues" or channeling need be so verbose but who am i to question the notion or inclination of sprt. anyway, for lack of time and an overarching theme i can relate with any sort of coherence, i'd like to mention the pieces the struck me: my first favorite piece is early on on p.5 in what i've entitled the
"revisionist ratio"
house is to museum
as documentary evidence is to friends who wish to remain anonymous.
not exactly proportionate
but his eyes are bigger
than our bellies
then her use of a type of negative/reversed language tools particularly in the piece on p.11. in the use of "nor" to start not one but two lines as well as the beautiful misyntax evoking a voice as if the narrator were struck by the sprit lost control of her vocalisation or pen; the definitions seem to make sense in the more prosaic STRUCTURE...and that's all i've time for now. d
"revisionist ratio"
house is to museum
as documentary evidence is to friends who wish to remain anonymous.
not exactly proportionate
but his eyes are bigger
than our bellies
then her use of a type of negative/reversed language tools particularly in the piece on p.11. in the use of "nor" to start not one but two lines as well as the beautiful misyntax evoking a voice as if the narrator were struck by the sprit lost control of her vocalisation or pen; the definitions seem to make sense in the more prosaic STRUCTURE...and that's all i've time for now. d
Since we want to raise Spicer’s ghost and discuss poet as conduit, here’s a quote (Jessea up your alley?):
“Since poets write backward in response to their deceased poetic predecessors and forward to the eventual readers of their poems, they exist inevitably outside their own time even as they reflect or embody it. Thus Spicer proposes that the poet is always posthumous in the act of composition—or outside of the present of the poems—since the ‘afterlife off the poem’ exists in a time beyond the life of the author.” p. 175 The House that Jack Built
However, that doesn’t really address the process of composing the poem and what follows is a brief oversimplified paraphrased summary (forgive me) of the poet and that process. For Spicer, the poet is a possessor of tools or “furniture” (which is essentially referential material gained from one’s reading) so s/he will be well equipped to “arrange” the received transmissions when the Outside comes knocking so to speak. Firstly, the poet must empty out and strip oneself of Ego and take on a passive role to allow the ghosts or predecessors to filter in. The poet is nothing but a copyist who is placed outside the poem (not aware of oneself) thus creating “a vacuum that draws into the poem both the textual predecessors of the poem’s past and the readers of its future” (175). By stepping outside one’s own work, the poet is at the disposal of something unknown, something alien that dictates what gets written, “the poet is virtually effaced in the reception of a transmission from elsewhere” (177) thus pushing one’s personal tendencies aside. Another quote: “Instead of channeling one frequency, one system of representation, one portrait, he displaces the personal content of the poet with a larger range of frequencies to bring the poem to a ‘higher level of abstraction’ without a loss of humanity” (179).
I think all of this somewhat resonates with Howe’s The Midnight. My focus for the moment is on the “poetry” sections of the book. Howe seems to be at the mercy of the past and its language and figures (ghosts?): “To describe Camlet I will / look into Chambers and / Postlethwayt” (15), “Malachy Postlethwayt (ed. 1773) / defines Calamanco as “a woolen / stuff manufactured in Brabant / in Flanders” chequered in warp” (37), “Sir Thomas Malory isolation / is not the question I am not / confined to distant recipient” (96). There seems to be a circular referencing that indeed pushes the poet’s own “personal content” aside thus having the Outside determine what is written, but more importantly, it seems to determine how to place oneself in context with what’s come before. And a “haunting” occurs? There is that dialog or correspondence between past and present that Spicer aims for. Again for Spicer, the act of composition is an arduous one, often taking hours to write one line then waiting more hours for the next. I am not claiming that Howe participated in the aforementioned process, however, often the poems, sections, pages or whatever you want to call them feel disconnected from each other as if they were coming from separate places, different times.
“Since poets write backward in response to their deceased poetic predecessors and forward to the eventual readers of their poems, they exist inevitably outside their own time even as they reflect or embody it. Thus Spicer proposes that the poet is always posthumous in the act of composition—or outside of the present of the poems—since the ‘afterlife off the poem’ exists in a time beyond the life of the author.” p. 175 The House that Jack Built
However, that doesn’t really address the process of composing the poem and what follows is a brief oversimplified paraphrased summary (forgive me) of the poet and that process. For Spicer, the poet is a possessor of tools or “furniture” (which is essentially referential material gained from one’s reading) so s/he will be well equipped to “arrange” the received transmissions when the Outside comes knocking so to speak. Firstly, the poet must empty out and strip oneself of Ego and take on a passive role to allow the ghosts or predecessors to filter in. The poet is nothing but a copyist who is placed outside the poem (not aware of oneself) thus creating “a vacuum that draws into the poem both the textual predecessors of the poem’s past and the readers of its future” (175). By stepping outside one’s own work, the poet is at the disposal of something unknown, something alien that dictates what gets written, “the poet is virtually effaced in the reception of a transmission from elsewhere” (177) thus pushing one’s personal tendencies aside. Another quote: “Instead of channeling one frequency, one system of representation, one portrait, he displaces the personal content of the poet with a larger range of frequencies to bring the poem to a ‘higher level of abstraction’ without a loss of humanity” (179).
I think all of this somewhat resonates with Howe’s The Midnight. My focus for the moment is on the “poetry” sections of the book. Howe seems to be at the mercy of the past and its language and figures (ghosts?): “To describe Camlet I will / look into Chambers and / Postlethwayt” (15), “Malachy Postlethwayt (ed. 1773) / defines Calamanco as “a woolen / stuff manufactured in Brabant / in Flanders” chequered in warp” (37), “Sir Thomas Malory isolation / is not the question I am not / confined to distant recipient” (96). There seems to be a circular referencing that indeed pushes the poet’s own “personal content” aside thus having the Outside determine what is written, but more importantly, it seems to determine how to place oneself in context with what’s come before. And a “haunting” occurs? There is that dialog or correspondence between past and present that Spicer aims for. Again for Spicer, the act of composition is an arduous one, often taking hours to write one line then waiting more hours for the next. I am not claiming that Howe participated in the aforementioned process, however, often the poems, sections, pages or whatever you want to call them feel disconnected from each other as if they were coming from separate places, different times.
I write poems for the public.
I call myself Brenda Coultas.
I write public poems.
I write poems for twenty, that's twenty people to a poem.
*
I made a deal with Juliana that I would read Brenda Coultas' "A Handmade Museum" this week and "The Midnight" later. It's amazing for me to read this book right now, because I am trying to write about Detroit and the topic is just so huge. It started off with a piece on photography, the way photographers always see Detroit as empty and how racist it is to assume nobody lives there. Then that raises the question, "how did Detroit get the way it is?" Coleman Young's amazing answer -- "Because half the goddamn population left!" -- doesn't suffice. The entire history of race, globalization, suburbanization, labor, factors in. And that's just for starters.
So to look at this tender book of the city seemed imperative to me now. The book reads more as documentary than poetry collection, with Coultas focusing, expansively but manageably, on the Bowery, which lies a block from her home. She makes exhaustive lists of treasures she finds in the garbage. She ruminates on brief interactions, the type most of us would forget about before they were even finished. She sets up a "wish box" and invites everyone who passes her to make a Bowery wish. Then she feels it would be invasive to read them. It is the act of making, remembering, wishing (Jessea, I think this resonates deeply with your manifesto) that is important.
To imbue the city with such attention to its detritus, to then turn that attention inward to conduct an accute examination of the self in that city, is a very powerful experiment to me. Along with the larger issues on which "Museum" comments (all with a deft and welcome subtlety) -- gentrification, poverty, September 11, memorialization, art and the role of the artist, ultimately what makes up a city and how does one move within it? -- Coultas uses the city as a launch for fascinating, often surreal self-explorations, bringing in her childhood on a farm, her family, her husband. This underscores for me that the city is both vast and minute, as is our place within it.
Questions that arise for me include that of fetishization. Coultas, like so many others of our generation (what's that?), is an avid collector and throughout the book marvels at various gems she finds while Dumpster diving (again, the sense of the surreal, the absurd that is part of what comprises a city -- there's a scene, and these do read as scenes, where neighbors begin lining up a vast collection of teeth found in a Dumpster outside her building. Interestingly, Coultas is less interested in the teeth, partially because they have been sitting right under her nose all these years. It's almost an admission of failure -- this great treasure was sitting downstairs and since I missed it I have no right to revel in it. It also raises the question of why is this a treasure anyway? Just because it's weird?) and there are numerous references to her penchant for thrift shopping. I can't help but think of every hipster collector (see this week's Chronicle mag home section for an example) and their shelves and mantels full of (useless?) retro kitsch. Yet Coultas collects as much as an attempt to save what she can of a dying (planners call this "transitioning") sector of the city as out of a sense of nostalgia, although I do think nostalgia is a factor in this book (really the activities are all tied together) -- is a driving force in/of the city -- and I love that she lends creedence to that.
There's also an issue of identification. There are times she aligns herself with the "Bowery Bums," notes she is one paycheck away from being one of them, takes up imaginative space on their sidewalk couches and physical space in their Dumpsters. In one of my pieces on Detroit and race I talk about "we" to underscore that once you live in the city you've joined the "us" that fights the "them" but how dangerous/disingenuous is it for me to perhaps imply, through a twist of language, that I have any experience being a black Detroiter, a wholly different experience from being a white one? Well, this is something my project must explore.
But it makes me wonder if there are times that we, as poets, "identify" in an attempt to give ourselves a voice of authority that we have not earned, to insert ourselves into the lastest literary trend of giving voice to the "underrepresented" (and I think it's on the whole a good trend, to the extent that a "trend" can be good, but with very narrow definitions of which of the "underrepresented" should now be allowed to speak) . Perhaps not so much to get in on the game, if we are somehow excluded by virtue of being white, middle class etc. as to give ourselves some sense of legitimacy as artists. I'm thinking here of Yedda Morrison's Crop (god, I know she's going to read this and I'm going to become the enemy of the SF avant-garde and I'm going to have to move to Chico or something where I can start a scene of my own) and her statement in Juliana's Wednesday night class about her experience working as a pear packer alongside migrant workers. At least a couple of us picked up on the fact that this was a high school job and wondered if perhaps she was trying to infuse her book with a credibility that perhaps she thought it lacked otherwise, like it wasn't enough to say, "I'm interested in the plight of the migrant worker" in today's literary world we have to say "I *am* one of them" (again, my ambivalence about how I write about Detroit).
I don't want to rule out the notion that this was revelatory/deeply embedded experience for her, it sounds like it was, and I think my skepticism (I was a cafeteria worker at the university in my hometown, yet you will not find me now identifying with members of the Food Service Union, for example) stems from questions about "positioning" in my own work. I also wouldn't question it if it didn't seem like something a lot of liberal, white, whatever class (currently I live below the poverty line, yet I somehow lead a middle class life and feel it is only honest to identify as such, I could always go work for some software giant or something if I wanted and I go to Mills for christsake -- it's an issue of options.) artists are doing these days.
Still, why this need to "identify"? And how does that somehow "un-identify" those who truly fit the categories we have laid out -- the full-time migrant workers, Detroit's almost entirely African American working/lower class -- what kind of erasure are we, ourselves, conducting when we begin to speak not for, but in alliance with a group that has not yet had the chance to speak on its own? This is why I think it was much easier for me to write about marriage (and I have to admit I was so happy when I discovered my "issue," my "in") -- it was happening to me, nobody can claim a white, middle-class girl has no right broaching the subject -- than Detroit.
I do think the question of being up front about our alliances, which came up when discussing Yamanaka last semester is quite relevant here, incidentally. But I do wonder if that's enough.
*
A man sells poems in the subway,
Published Poet is his name.
It costs whatever you want to give him.
I'm the same, it's whatever you want to give me only I want everything.
I call myself Brenda Coultas.
I write public poems.
I write poems for twenty, that's twenty people to a poem.
*
I made a deal with Juliana that I would read Brenda Coultas' "A Handmade Museum" this week and "The Midnight" later. It's amazing for me to read this book right now, because I am trying to write about Detroit and the topic is just so huge. It started off with a piece on photography, the way photographers always see Detroit as empty and how racist it is to assume nobody lives there. Then that raises the question, "how did Detroit get the way it is?" Coleman Young's amazing answer -- "Because half the goddamn population left!" -- doesn't suffice. The entire history of race, globalization, suburbanization, labor, factors in. And that's just for starters.
So to look at this tender book of the city seemed imperative to me now. The book reads more as documentary than poetry collection, with Coultas focusing, expansively but manageably, on the Bowery, which lies a block from her home. She makes exhaustive lists of treasures she finds in the garbage. She ruminates on brief interactions, the type most of us would forget about before they were even finished. She sets up a "wish box" and invites everyone who passes her to make a Bowery wish. Then she feels it would be invasive to read them. It is the act of making, remembering, wishing (Jessea, I think this resonates deeply with your manifesto) that is important.
To imbue the city with such attention to its detritus, to then turn that attention inward to conduct an accute examination of the self in that city, is a very powerful experiment to me. Along with the larger issues on which "Museum" comments (all with a deft and welcome subtlety) -- gentrification, poverty, September 11, memorialization, art and the role of the artist, ultimately what makes up a city and how does one move within it? -- Coultas uses the city as a launch for fascinating, often surreal self-explorations, bringing in her childhood on a farm, her family, her husband. This underscores for me that the city is both vast and minute, as is our place within it.
Questions that arise for me include that of fetishization. Coultas, like so many others of our generation (what's that?), is an avid collector and throughout the book marvels at various gems she finds while Dumpster diving (again, the sense of the surreal, the absurd that is part of what comprises a city -- there's a scene, and these do read as scenes, where neighbors begin lining up a vast collection of teeth found in a Dumpster outside her building. Interestingly, Coultas is less interested in the teeth, partially because they have been sitting right under her nose all these years. It's almost an admission of failure -- this great treasure was sitting downstairs and since I missed it I have no right to revel in it. It also raises the question of why is this a treasure anyway? Just because it's weird?) and there are numerous references to her penchant for thrift shopping. I can't help but think of every hipster collector (see this week's Chronicle mag home section for an example) and their shelves and mantels full of (useless?) retro kitsch. Yet Coultas collects as much as an attempt to save what she can of a dying (planners call this "transitioning") sector of the city as out of a sense of nostalgia, although I do think nostalgia is a factor in this book (really the activities are all tied together) -- is a driving force in/of the city -- and I love that she lends creedence to that.
There's also an issue of identification. There are times she aligns herself with the "Bowery Bums," notes she is one paycheck away from being one of them, takes up imaginative space on their sidewalk couches and physical space in their Dumpsters. In one of my pieces on Detroit and race I talk about "we" to underscore that once you live in the city you've joined the "us" that fights the "them" but how dangerous/disingenuous is it for me to perhaps imply, through a twist of language, that I have any experience being a black Detroiter, a wholly different experience from being a white one? Well, this is something my project must explore.
But it makes me wonder if there are times that we, as poets, "identify" in an attempt to give ourselves a voice of authority that we have not earned, to insert ourselves into the lastest literary trend of giving voice to the "underrepresented" (and I think it's on the whole a good trend, to the extent that a "trend" can be good, but with very narrow definitions of which of the "underrepresented" should now be allowed to speak) . Perhaps not so much to get in on the game, if we are somehow excluded by virtue of being white, middle class etc. as to give ourselves some sense of legitimacy as artists. I'm thinking here of Yedda Morrison's Crop (god, I know she's going to read this and I'm going to become the enemy of the SF avant-garde and I'm going to have to move to Chico or something where I can start a scene of my own) and her statement in Juliana's Wednesday night class about her experience working as a pear packer alongside migrant workers. At least a couple of us picked up on the fact that this was a high school job and wondered if perhaps she was trying to infuse her book with a credibility that perhaps she thought it lacked otherwise, like it wasn't enough to say, "I'm interested in the plight of the migrant worker" in today's literary world we have to say "I *am* one of them" (again, my ambivalence about how I write about Detroit).
I don't want to rule out the notion that this was revelatory/deeply embedded experience for her, it sounds like it was, and I think my skepticism (I was a cafeteria worker at the university in my hometown, yet you will not find me now identifying with members of the Food Service Union, for example) stems from questions about "positioning" in my own work. I also wouldn't question it if it didn't seem like something a lot of liberal, white, whatever class (currently I live below the poverty line, yet I somehow lead a middle class life and feel it is only honest to identify as such, I could always go work for some software giant or something if I wanted and I go to Mills for christsake -- it's an issue of options.) artists are doing these days.
Still, why this need to "identify"? And how does that somehow "un-identify" those who truly fit the categories we have laid out -- the full-time migrant workers, Detroit's almost entirely African American working/lower class -- what kind of erasure are we, ourselves, conducting when we begin to speak not for, but in alliance with a group that has not yet had the chance to speak on its own? This is why I think it was much easier for me to write about marriage (and I have to admit I was so happy when I discovered my "issue," my "in") -- it was happening to me, nobody can claim a white, middle-class girl has no right broaching the subject -- than Detroit.
I do think the question of being up front about our alliances, which came up when discussing Yamanaka last semester is quite relevant here, incidentally. But I do wonder if that's enough.
*
A man sells poems in the subway,
Published Poet is his name.
It costs whatever you want to give him.
I'm the same, it's whatever you want to give me only I want everything.
yes.. Kate Lilly's reading was super great and funny too.. and thanks to those who came to hear me read!
As for Susan Howe, I am apt to defend her work, but need more time to do so eloquently...this work, I admit, is hard to get, but I'm thinking perhaps, there is not a specific 'getting' that she is at. Yes..there are parts about her mother, about her own history, about one's placement in the whole lot , ones thread in the weave. I am fascinated by her intricate study of history/histories...supposing they are true, though certainly also fictionalized, I imagine. There is something here in the work that I am drawn too, not sure how to articulate it, yet...maybe it is the idea of 'things' having a bigger meaning/or no meaning at all...the 'bed hangings'...images of 'lace'...or where she says, "The relational space is the thing that's alive with something from somewhere else."...much more thinking to do.
I like the idea of re-reading as a group somehow, or perhaps each of us taking sections to break into and see what we come up with.
As for Susan Howe, I am apt to defend her work, but need more time to do so eloquently...this work, I admit, is hard to get, but I'm thinking perhaps, there is not a specific 'getting' that she is at. Yes..there are parts about her mother, about her own history, about one's placement in the whole lot , ones thread in the weave. I am fascinated by her intricate study of history/histories...supposing they are true, though certainly also fictionalized, I imagine. There is something here in the work that I am drawn too, not sure how to articulate it, yet...maybe it is the idea of 'things' having a bigger meaning/or no meaning at all...the 'bed hangings'...images of 'lace'...or where she says, "The relational space is the thing that's alive with something from somewhere else."...much more thinking to do.
I like the idea of re-reading as a group somehow, or perhaps each of us taking sections to break into and see what we come up with.
Tuesday, February 17, 2004
The Kate Lilley reading was super excellent fun.
I confess that I assigned the Susan Howe book because I am fascinated with it and yet can't figure it out yet either. And I thought maybe if we read it together, maybe we could figure something more out about it.
How would we do that? I am wondering if we could all trace our lines of connection through the book. Which is sort of what Meg and Jessea did. My copy is in my office but I will try and do this in the next day or so.
There is a review by John Palatella where he argues that it is "all about her mother" here.
Padcha, is the Howe book a philosophical poem?
I confess that I assigned the Susan Howe book because I am fascinated with it and yet can't figure it out yet either. And I thought maybe if we read it together, maybe we could figure something more out about it.
How would we do that? I am wondering if we could all trace our lines of connection through the book. Which is sort of what Meg and Jessea did. My copy is in my office but I will try and do this in the next day or so.
There is a review by John Palatella where he argues that it is "all about her mother" here.
Padcha, is the Howe book a philosophical poem?
OK. This is my third draft trying to tackle the philosophical poem issue…shouldn’t have started it. But I did. So, here I am facing the consequences.
I got fascinated by philosophy because 1) it promises me answers to big issues (although I never asked for details) 2) it’s a lot of “removed” thinking—I mean you are allowed to think about life, politics, justice, beauty, being, time; not so much dinner or transportation or laundry. I feel I’m going somewhere exceptional that will answer everything once I come back form it. 3) by the end, just the thinking itself empowers me—no concrete answer to big questions; and I still have to think about dinner and transportation and so on. But I feel I’m smarter. (4) by the very end, if thinking takes place in everyone, it will be really good even if we still need to routinely deal with daily life)
So, philosophy is about thinking, whether this thinking is personal or universal, whether this thinking belongs to one philosopher or to the human good. Philosophers largely get satisfied by thoughts. Writing this way makes me feel more ready to deal with the 'real' world. Writing philosophical poems is a mode of thinking for me. Reading one is more or less the same, although i have to admit, it's harder to read than to write poems that are of this nature.
What satisfies poets??
(I guess my question is still as big and hard as it was before... Sorry. I’ll stop now.)
I got fascinated by philosophy because 1) it promises me answers to big issues (although I never asked for details) 2) it’s a lot of “removed” thinking—I mean you are allowed to think about life, politics, justice, beauty, being, time; not so much dinner or transportation or laundry. I feel I’m going somewhere exceptional that will answer everything once I come back form it. 3) by the end, just the thinking itself empowers me—no concrete answer to big questions; and I still have to think about dinner and transportation and so on. But I feel I’m smarter. (4) by the very end, if thinking takes place in everyone, it will be really good even if we still need to routinely deal with daily life)
So, philosophy is about thinking, whether this thinking is personal or universal, whether this thinking belongs to one philosopher or to the human good. Philosophers largely get satisfied by thoughts. Writing this way makes me feel more ready to deal with the 'real' world. Writing philosophical poems is a mode of thinking for me. Reading one is more or less the same, although i have to admit, it's harder to read than to write poems that are of this nature.
What satisfies poets??
(I guess my question is still as big and hard as it was before... Sorry. I’ll stop now.)
The 21st-Century Poetics Series & Small Press Traffic are thrilled to
host a surprise appearance by
BILL LUOMA and TOM RAWORTH
Thursday, February 19
at the Miles House aka the Berkeley Center for Writers
2275 Virginia St. between Spruce and Arch in North Berkeley
7 pm potluck, 8 pm (sharp) readings
This event will be collaboratively funded; donations in the form of food,
drink, folding chairs, or the usual (sliding scale, $0-10) gratefully
accepted.
Bill Luoma was born in San Francisco in 1960 and earned degrees in chemistry
and computer science. His latest works include Works & Days (The Figures,
1998), Dear Dad (Tinfish, 2000), New Mannerist Tricycle (with Lisa Jarnot &
Rod Smith, Beautiful Swimmer, 2000), PeaceNick (IATH, 2002), % (No Press,
2004), and Radio Grasshopper (a play; SPT, 2004). He is also a member of
the Subpress collective, through which he recently edited Scott Bentley's
The Occasional Tables. He lives in Oakland.
Tom Raworth was born in London just before the Second World War and is
living in Cambridge during the Third One. For more than forty years he has
worked, written, printed, published, taught, collaged, travelled, and
indulged the usual physical functions. He likes spicy foods, and needs more
light as he gets older. His Collected (not Complete) Poems was published in
the UK by Carcanet Press in 2003.
host a surprise appearance by
BILL LUOMA and TOM RAWORTH
Thursday, February 19
at the Miles House aka the Berkeley Center for Writers
2275 Virginia St. between Spruce and Arch in North Berkeley
7 pm potluck, 8 pm (sharp) readings
This event will be collaboratively funded; donations in the form of food,
drink, folding chairs, or the usual (sliding scale, $0-10) gratefully
accepted.
Bill Luoma was born in San Francisco in 1960 and earned degrees in chemistry
and computer science. His latest works include Works & Days (The Figures,
1998), Dear Dad (Tinfish, 2000), New Mannerist Tricycle (with Lisa Jarnot &
Rod Smith, Beautiful Swimmer, 2000), PeaceNick (IATH, 2002), % (No Press,
2004), and Radio Grasshopper (a play; SPT, 2004). He is also a member of
the Subpress collective, through which he recently edited Scott Bentley's
The Occasional Tables. He lives in Oakland.
Tom Raworth was born in London just before the Second World War and is
living in Cambridge during the Third One. For more than forty years he has
worked, written, printed, published, taught, collaged, travelled, and
indulged the usual physical functions. He likes spicy foods, and needs more
light as he gets older. His Collected (not Complete) Poems was published in
the UK by Carcanet Press in 2003.
Monday, February 16, 2004
A question: When should the writing be asked to speak for itself as opposed to the reason for writing making a statement not through what is said, but how it is said? The Language Poet argument rings of anarchism- but there is the danger in anarchism (and I do know a few living in the desert without toilets) that after deconstructing all that society deems to be true, after breaking it all down to nothing, then building something else, something tangible out of that nothing, becomes extremely difficult. By that I mean it becomes a negative way of life as opposed to a productive one, all reaction in place of creation.
Susan Howe said of Emily Dickinson: “She has shown me that access to the metaphysical is the requirement of a NEED. Poems are the impossibility of plainness rendered in plainest form.”
If the NEED is the writing, (the “violence within that protects us from the violence without”) then I think Howe is saying that tapping into that ultimate metaphysical reality is necessary in order to write honestly and to write well. For me, this is a good point of departure to enter into discussion of The Midnight. I think Howe is attempting to access this metaphysical world through the investigation of ancient objects (bedhangings, the tissue interleaf in old books, Emily Dickinson’s manuscripts) and people from another era- many of whom connect to her family history in some way. She’s on a quest and her maps are the bedhangings. Jessea spoke of channeling and I get the sense that Howe is using objects and people as the preliminary channel for something larger to flow. Though it seemed no more than an attempt to me. I can’t say that I found much in her book that was revealing beyond the physicality, the history of the objects and people themselves. She speaks of the grandiose characters from history but I’m not sure why she brings them up. Last Wednesday we spoke of a book getting somewhere. Where does she get in this book? Is it a personal archeological dig? If so, is it too personal? Is there enough there beyond the Howe family for us to maintain interest?
She mentioned in the section called “Scare Quotes I” that she was in the midst of preparing to teach a seminar on “The Great Awakening” of 1740 in the Connecticut River Valley. I couldn’t help then, when reading the rest of the book, think that a lot of this probing in “The Midnight” was speaking to that course. I felt like it was work she was doing in order to maintain enthusiasm about this other underlying topic, that she was looking for points of access that were motivating and then recording them.
The prose pieces and the poetry helped each other. The prose explained/ examined the poems and the poems opened and aired out the prose.
I agree with Padcha- difficult.
Susan Howe said of Emily Dickinson: “She has shown me that access to the metaphysical is the requirement of a NEED. Poems are the impossibility of plainness rendered in plainest form.”
If the NEED is the writing, (the “violence within that protects us from the violence without”) then I think Howe is saying that tapping into that ultimate metaphysical reality is necessary in order to write honestly and to write well. For me, this is a good point of departure to enter into discussion of The Midnight. I think Howe is attempting to access this metaphysical world through the investigation of ancient objects (bedhangings, the tissue interleaf in old books, Emily Dickinson’s manuscripts) and people from another era- many of whom connect to her family history in some way. She’s on a quest and her maps are the bedhangings. Jessea spoke of channeling and I get the sense that Howe is using objects and people as the preliminary channel for something larger to flow. Though it seemed no more than an attempt to me. I can’t say that I found much in her book that was revealing beyond the physicality, the history of the objects and people themselves. She speaks of the grandiose characters from history but I’m not sure why she brings them up. Last Wednesday we spoke of a book getting somewhere. Where does she get in this book? Is it a personal archeological dig? If so, is it too personal? Is there enough there beyond the Howe family for us to maintain interest?
She mentioned in the section called “Scare Quotes I” that she was in the midst of preparing to teach a seminar on “The Great Awakening” of 1740 in the Connecticut River Valley. I couldn’t help then, when reading the rest of the book, think that a lot of this probing in “The Midnight” was speaking to that course. I felt like it was work she was doing in order to maintain enthusiasm about this other underlying topic, that she was looking for points of access that were motivating and then recording them.
The prose pieces and the poetry helped each other. The prose explained/ examined the poems and the poems opened and aired out the prose.
I agree with Padcha- difficult.
does anyone have suggestions for writing in a trance? juliana, our resident hypnotist?
anyway, here are my thoughts on....
the midnight
I think my favorite thing about this book is the overall mood of mystery and investigation. It’s hard to pin down. Reading the Midnight is like sifting through the empty house of a dead collector. Going through boxes in an attic, letters in a desk drawer. There are so many histories and artifacts. It feels very collaged, like Howe gathered all these materials, pieces of evidence. For what exact purpose I am not certain, but I read them with interest because they feel very intentional. I put together little fleeting narratives as I read these. Detective. The small boxy poems are harder to pin down, but they feel very ghosty to me. Spectral. Hushed. (I could use these for my own work, if my ghost poems continue—they might die.) With each little box I get a whole (unintentional or not??) moment. To me these don’t read as though Howe is putting them together randomly, they feel like she’s put together a scavenger hunt for us to figure out. But like I said, I haven’t figured them out yet. Such a strong sense of history and research.. The images are striking and spooky, more evidence. Children with dark eyes, old drawings, so much to do with printed matter. Love of printed material and old books. Gothic. Centuries-old handwriting. Very much collecting evidence of the ghost of these readers & writers. Permission to create my own narrative (as opposed to, say, jackson maclowe’s work..). My, that was scattered.
Back to my unsuccessful phony trance making.
anyway, here are my thoughts on....
the midnight
I think my favorite thing about this book is the overall mood of mystery and investigation. It’s hard to pin down. Reading the Midnight is like sifting through the empty house of a dead collector. Going through boxes in an attic, letters in a desk drawer. There are so many histories and artifacts. It feels very collaged, like Howe gathered all these materials, pieces of evidence. For what exact purpose I am not certain, but I read them with interest because they feel very intentional. I put together little fleeting narratives as I read these. Detective. The small boxy poems are harder to pin down, but they feel very ghosty to me. Spectral. Hushed. (I could use these for my own work, if my ghost poems continue—they might die.) With each little box I get a whole (unintentional or not??) moment. To me these don’t read as though Howe is putting them together randomly, they feel like she’s put together a scavenger hunt for us to figure out. But like I said, I haven’t figured them out yet. Such a strong sense of history and research.. The images are striking and spooky, more evidence. Children with dark eyes, old drawings, so much to do with printed matter. Love of printed material and old books. Gothic. Centuries-old handwriting. Very much collecting evidence of the ghost of these readers & writers. Permission to create my own narrative (as opposed to, say, jackson maclowe’s work..). My, that was scattered.
Back to my unsuccessful phony trance making.
I recommend the docent led walk at Ano Nuevo near Santa Cruz (this side of Davenport)...even on such a day as this(reservations recommended in winter through the state parks). The kids and I went today and it was really beautiful, if not a bit wild, and the elephants seals are amazing to watch..I know it is a bit out of the 'realm of community' walks, but it seems pertinent to expand that idea of community and feel/see where we live in relation to the natural world . It did us good to get out of the flat lands, I must say.
Sorry to have missed the reading last night...too much running around as Juliana said......and as for the 'bar,' I might suggest something closer like the Alley on Grand Ave...though I won't get the chance to join you (accept this Thurs night).
Did anyone read the article sent to our listserve about the poet, Reetika Vazirani?
I'm not sure how I am supposed to feel after reading it....certainly not encouraged especially as a mother, a woman, and a poet..very troubling and disturbing actually...all that positioning that goes on in the world of literature and academia certainly can't be good for us creative people. This story feels so very sad and as if it something I don't want to look at it again..it almost hurts.
Sorry to have missed the reading last night...too much running around as Juliana said......and as for the 'bar,' I might suggest something closer like the Alley on Grand Ave...though I won't get the chance to join you (accept this Thurs night).
Did anyone read the article sent to our listserve about the poet, Reetika Vazirani?
I'm not sure how I am supposed to feel after reading it....certainly not encouraged especially as a mother, a woman, and a poet..very troubling and disturbing actually...all that positioning that goes on in the world of literature and academia certainly can't be good for us creative people. This story feels so very sad and as if it something I don't want to look at it again..it almost hurts.
About The Midnight
After having been reading the book attentively for the past week, I still need to say that I find it difficult. It’s so interestingly rich and encompassing. There are two centuries in it! It must be one of those really great books that really require time to read and understand. I feel it but can't pretend to get it because I don’t, at least not in its entirety. Or, the text hasn’t got me yet. It one day will.
These are what I like about it so far: I like the prose, which reads to me like undecorated retellings of stories. They read a bit like newspaper columns but more secretive, more privy; I like the poetry pretty much the same effect—undecorated retellings of stories—but even more, it’s not only undecorated; it was sanded to the bear bone! What I am still working on is the big picture of the book. I’m trying to piece things together. I’m looking forward to hear what you all have to say. (Jessea, you told me you were liking it?)
After having been reading the book attentively for the past week, I still need to say that I find it difficult. It’s so interestingly rich and encompassing. There are two centuries in it! It must be one of those really great books that really require time to read and understand. I feel it but can't pretend to get it because I don’t, at least not in its entirety. Or, the text hasn’t got me yet. It one day will.
These are what I like about it so far: I like the prose, which reads to me like undecorated retellings of stories. They read a bit like newspaper columns but more secretive, more privy; I like the poetry pretty much the same effect—undecorated retellings of stories—but even more, it’s not only undecorated; it was sanded to the bear bone! What I am still working on is the big picture of the book. I’m trying to piece things together. I’m looking forward to hear what you all have to say. (Jessea, you told me you were liking it?)
i like scott's #3.
meredith monk was great this weekend. barge was fun. lyn hejinian and rodney koeneke also great fun. too much running around.
tomorrow night there is what looks to be an interesting reading at berkeley:
Tuesday, February 17
Kate Lilley
was born in 1960 and grew up in Perth and Sydney. After completing her PhD on Masculine Elegy at the University of London she spent four years as a Junior Research Fellow at Oxford University. Since 1990 she has taught feminist literary history and theory at the University of Sydney and has published widely on early modern women’s writing and contemporary poetry. She is the author of Versary (Salt Publishing, 2002), and editor of Margaret Cavendish: New Blazing World and Other Writings (Penguin Classics, 1992).
Margaret Ronda
is a graduate student in English at UC Berkeley. She received an MFA in poetry from Indiana University. Her poems have appeared in Prairie Schooner, Seattle Review, Green Mountains Review, and other journals.
5:30 food & chat
7 pm Reading
in Maud Fife Room 315
Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley
padcha: yr questions on philosophical poems too big and hard to answer. maybe you should attempt answer and then we can argue with you or not.
meredith monk was great this weekend. barge was fun. lyn hejinian and rodney koeneke also great fun. too much running around.
tomorrow night there is what looks to be an interesting reading at berkeley:
Tuesday, February 17
Kate Lilley
was born in 1960 and grew up in Perth and Sydney. After completing her PhD on Masculine Elegy at the University of London she spent four years as a Junior Research Fellow at Oxford University. Since 1990 she has taught feminist literary history and theory at the University of Sydney and has published widely on early modern women’s writing and contemporary poetry. She is the author of Versary (Salt Publishing, 2002), and editor of Margaret Cavendish: New Blazing World and Other Writings (Penguin Classics, 1992).
Margaret Ronda
is a graduate student in English at UC Berkeley. She received an MFA in poetry from Indiana University. Her poems have appeared in Prairie Schooner, Seattle Review, Green Mountains Review, and other journals.
5:30 food & chat
7 pm Reading
in Maud Fife Room 315
Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley
padcha: yr questions on philosophical poems too big and hard to answer. maybe you should attempt answer and then we can argue with you or not.
some thoughts to toss in thought-pot:
-I wish I were as smart as Scott, but I'm not.
-Any bar is fine/dandy. If no one has objections to Scott's suggestion, I say we make it official. To minimize confusion. Can someone post where it is?
-I think a lot of these discussions are in some way hovering around what Kristin brought up about Ego. Individual poet-genius versus mouthpiece for community experience. This hasn't really been an issue for me in terms of poetry..yet. But now it is. It's an interesting dichotomy that plays out all over the place. I'm inclined to think Ego is okay for humans. I could say otherwise but I'd only be doing that because it sounds nicer.
-As to Padcha's question about the place of loftyphilosophy type issues in poetry. I wonder same thing. Anyone have ideas?
-I also wonder about the idea of Escapism. I forgot to write about this the other day and don't have the stamina for it now. But basically, Wallace Stevens admits that the ideas he develops basically come down to poetry as escapism. Which also brings me back to the Thom Yorke vs. Howard Zinn discussion re. artists + politics. Zinn says if your work isn't political then it's escapist, it's "entertainment." Like you're no better than Britney Spears. And Yorke says, "Yes it's escapist, but escapism isn't bad." And Stevens is on same page as Yorke. Weigh in!
-Dan said he was going to blog about the idea of poet-as-medium, channeler, but he hasn't. So do it! But in case you don't I'm throwing it out there. We talk a lot in workshop about plans and assembling of poems. "My ideal thesis would include a study of all the animals in my local zoo and also some quantum mechanics and some poems about Mexican bicycles." Or in class we're like, "Maybe you should add some language of gardening in here." But what if that whole idea of assembling/recipe making assumes all poems are written this way? What about idea of writing to find out what you're writing about? Of poet as transcriber of poem that comes from Out There?
-I didn't BARGE but Rodney Koeneke + Lyn Hejinian reading was great. I have been won over by the Koeneke. He was a great performer. We should all take acting classes before readings. I resolve to become more eloquent. Hejinian's poems were all cowboy narrativo about...sailing? Help.
-I wish I were as smart as Scott, but I'm not.
-Any bar is fine/dandy. If no one has objections to Scott's suggestion, I say we make it official. To minimize confusion. Can someone post where it is?
-I think a lot of these discussions are in some way hovering around what Kristin brought up about Ego. Individual poet-genius versus mouthpiece for community experience. This hasn't really been an issue for me in terms of poetry..yet. But now it is. It's an interesting dichotomy that plays out all over the place. I'm inclined to think Ego is okay for humans. I could say otherwise but I'd only be doing that because it sounds nicer.
-As to Padcha's question about the place of loftyphilosophy type issues in poetry. I wonder same thing. Anyone have ideas?
-I also wonder about the idea of Escapism. I forgot to write about this the other day and don't have the stamina for it now. But basically, Wallace Stevens admits that the ideas he develops basically come down to poetry as escapism. Which also brings me back to the Thom Yorke vs. Howard Zinn discussion re. artists + politics. Zinn says if your work isn't political then it's escapist, it's "entertainment." Like you're no better than Britney Spears. And Yorke says, "Yes it's escapist, but escapism isn't bad." And Stevens is on same page as Yorke. Weigh in!
-Dan said he was going to blog about the idea of poet-as-medium, channeler, but he hasn't. So do it! But in case you don't I'm throwing it out there. We talk a lot in workshop about plans and assembling of poems. "My ideal thesis would include a study of all the animals in my local zoo and also some quantum mechanics and some poems about Mexican bicycles." Or in class we're like, "Maybe you should add some language of gardening in here." But what if that whole idea of assembling/recipe making assumes all poems are written this way? What about idea of writing to find out what you're writing about? Of poet as transcriber of poem that comes from Out There?
-I didn't BARGE but Rodney Koeneke + Lyn Hejinian reading was great. I have been won over by the Koeneke. He was a great performer. We should all take acting classes before readings. I resolve to become more eloquent. Hejinian's poems were all cowboy narrativo about...sailing? Help.
Hey Scott--
Do you mean Meredith Monk? Or Marilyn Manson?
I'm still curious about the question Dan raises about "preaching to the converted." Later, after another cup (or three) of tea, I may even be able to articulate what I'm getting at since so much of what Scott says resonates with me. BUT if the people reading our work are already inclined to "read differently" what's political about it? (This is a devil's advocate question, I admit. I do believe the act of inserting ourselves in history in any sort of subversive manner, no matter how soft the pitter patter of our little footsteps, how marginal the culture tsars decree we may be, is political.) Tied to this question is one of whether we, poets, deem our work to be political merely to justify what we do, an act the dominant culture seems to force us into (see, for instance, Bush's new plan for the NEA and its Traveling Masterworks program or whatever the hell it's called -- no wonder I refuse to buy that $50 Dana Goia book for Stephen's class!) but one we should perhaps be rejecting. Why isn't it enough to just say, "I write" (therefore I am???)?
Do you mean Meredith Monk? Or Marilyn Manson?
I'm still curious about the question Dan raises about "preaching to the converted." Later, after another cup (or three) of tea, I may even be able to articulate what I'm getting at since so much of what Scott says resonates with me. BUT if the people reading our work are already inclined to "read differently" what's political about it? (This is a devil's advocate question, I admit. I do believe the act of inserting ourselves in history in any sort of subversive manner, no matter how soft the pitter patter of our little footsteps, how marginal the culture tsars decree we may be, is political.) Tied to this question is one of whether we, poets, deem our work to be political merely to justify what we do, an act the dominant culture seems to force us into (see, for instance, Bush's new plan for the NEA and its Traveling Masterworks program or whatever the hell it's called -- no wonder I refuse to buy that $50 Dana Goia book for Stephen's class!) but one we should perhaps be rejecting. Why isn't it enough to just say, "I write" (therefore I am???)?
From Scott:
I noted this morning that the intro to my post from yesterday didn't make
sense. Sorry.
I wrote:
I believe that two aspects of my writing (as it takes its place in some
sort of general context of the avant garde) has three aspects about it that are deeply political (these three aspects, by the way, may be troublingly
contradictory):
I want to revise it as follows:
I believe that my writing (as it takes its place in some sort of general
context of the avant garde) has three aspects about it that are deeply political
(these three aspects, by the way, may be troublingly contradictory)
I noted this morning that the intro to my post from yesterday didn't make
sense. Sorry.
I wrote:
I believe that two aspects of my writing (as it takes its place in some
sort of general context of the avant garde) has three aspects about it that are deeply political (these three aspects, by the way, may be troublingly
contradictory):
I want to revise it as follows:
I believe that my writing (as it takes its place in some sort of general
context of the avant garde) has three aspects about it that are deeply political
(these three aspects, by the way, may be troublingly contradictory)
Sunday, February 15, 2004
meg, you are stellar for going this afternoon. I'm sorry that i missed it, but couldn't manage it with so many other things going on...i still do plan on going to one or the other walks, and like the ideas of sunday walks...I won't be here next sunday, but would like to do another walk on the following sunday. If anyone is up for a walk on Thursday morning I could do that too...Albany bowl?
The White Horse sounds good to me. On David Buuck's walk today we learned that one should only eat two fish from the bay per month in order to avoid illnesses associated with the toxins found therein. Only one fish per month if you are pregnant.
From Scott. For some reason, the Blog doesn't like him
Meg writes:
And beer on Thursdays. Anyone have qualms with Jupiters? Perhaps we should go somewhere where there is liquor for William.
Well, I have to recommend that we alternate each week between Berkeley and
Oakland. For me, Jupiters isn't great because it's not all that easily
accessible to a wheelchair. I'd recommend The White Horse on Telegraph Ave., Jack
Spicer's old hangout. Maybe we could raise his ghost. But whatever.
Kristen writes:
Personally, I've never harbored any delusions that anything I've written
(poetically) with political content would change somebody's viewpoint. What it
might do for someone though, is what it does for me: take a subject with which
I'm already concerned and help me see new points of entry, new connections,
new points to ponder.
I want to weigh in on this topic, want to give a run at articulating a
possible role of the political in writing. I believe that two aspects of my writing
(as it takes its place in some sort of general context of the avant garde) h
as three aspects about it that are deeply political (these three aspects, by
the way, may be troublingly contradictory):
1) My writing is highly theoretical and predicated on experimentation and as
such most people don't "get" it, yet it invites readers to collaborate in a
potentially pleasurable process of semantic construction. I am interested in
lacunae, in the interstitial frontiers of language. The texts ask a reader, if
she wishes, to construct larger wholes of which the given language elements
register only a part. If the writing is successful, it moves beyond the page,
challenging my readers; if the work works, it converges in conversation with
what one usually thinks of as "language" writing, offering, at once, a
materialist critique and lyric celebration of late capitalist culture's working
machinery, bounding out an idiomatic syntax of dialectic possibility. My work sings
a Whitmanesque cacophony of voices that strive to join, as Allen Ginsberg
writes in HOWL (Pocket Poets Series, 1974):
...incarnate gaps in Time & Space through
images juxtaposed, and tra[p] the archangel of the soul
between 2 visual images and joi[n] the elemental verbs
and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping
with sensation...(p. 16)
Influenced in part by Bebop, a completely democratic form of American
experimental music, my work attempts to give voice to the ineluctable, standing on
the limnal of what we can think and say in an attempt to let "others" speak.
2) I imagine that the first viewers of images on the walls of caves (if in
fact there ever were such viewers) didn't necessarily intend for the
buffalo-looking thing on the wall to stand as a representation of the angry animal in
real-time. Or perhaps the image was meant to be understood not as a
representation at all, but instead inside a completely different paradigm as something
"other" made in worshipful reverence to the gods of the hunt. Perhaps the
trouble is that over time this worshipful reverence of the material world that may
have once been the goal of art has been forgotten, audiences becoming
gradually and variously complacent, addicted to representation and narrative.
Audiences (in the main) no longer want to work at it.
We, these many centuries after the first artists, have as a culture now
forgotten to take note of the spectral in the common; I hope in my work to get
closer to actual experience by rejecting simple representation, suggesting that
actual life in the Diaspora is in fact much more complex and difficult and
mysterious than a simple story of a green leafy thing blowing in the wind; that a
tree is in fact impossible to capture, ever, in all of its beauty and history
and biology and weather and existence in time and space; that the very desire
to capture the tree in the first place is somehow wrong-headed. Objects in the
world are creations of the godhead to be approached with worshipful awe.
Indeed, during the Middle Ages artists made numerous icons of the Virgin Mary
covered in goldlief, etc., that we've all seen in art history books. These
artists were fully aware that these objects had absolutely nothing to do with what
the gods may actually "look" like. The religious icon is thus a separate
entity, a thing in itself. It doesn't even try to represent the gods.
Thus, in my work I hope to maintain that the painting of the tree as a green
leafy thing outside the window is somehow false and simplistic, that the word
"tree" stops the action of the object that we experience in the "real" world
and therefore does not do it justice. As such, my work has a pedagogical, even
Messianic, agenda: I hope to help get the culture back on-track, to jump
tracks in order to get to the other side, de-mystifying the act of reading; I
want readers to unlearn their lazy habits, to become more like writers,
distinguishing with intention, deliberation, between signifier and signified. I
believe that language is a thing in itself, is not transparent. I believe--dare I
say?--that representation is somehow even morally wrong. Difficulty is good,
is to be embraced; that is, a reader does not necessarily have to have a good
time while reading my work, though I do hope in my work, despite its clamorous
appropriation of language, to achieve, paradoxically, silence. Beauty,
silence. As artists, we will never get there (wherever that is), may only convince
one or two people during our careers of the fact of language's thing-ness, but
it is our moral and political responsibility as citizens to try with
everything we've got. That's beauty. When I grow up, I want to be Marilyn Monk.
3) Writing must be a deeply political activity because the only phenomenon
with which writing has always been concomitant is the creation of cities and
empires: the integration of large numbers of individuals into a political
system, and their grading into castes or classes. Such, at any rate, is the
typical pattern of development to be observed from Egypt to China at the time when
writing first emerged: writing seems to have favored the exploitation of human
beings rather than their enlightenment. This exploitation, which made it
possible to assemble thousands of workers and force them to carry out exhausting
and inhumane tasks, is the fulcrum upon which civilization rests, and it is
this fact that we are up against in this class. That is, if my hypothesis is
correct, it would oblige us to recognize the fact that the primary function of
written communication is to facilitate a master-slave relationship between
authors and audiences, between those who sell the material of consciousness and
those who buy it, between those who are empowered and those who are
disenfranchised.
Let me then generalize that, on some level, as the culture proceeds through
history, as passivity and entropy set in, members of a reading culture
increasingly take representation and narrative as fact, audiences for example
supporting a wicked and violent action taken against a sovereign nation in part
because Colin Powell says that the fuzzy black and white images projected on a
screen are actual satellite photos of "weapons of mass destruction." Everybody
buys it. No body looks AT what's going on; everybody looks THROUGH the language
to what it represents. The language thus becomes invisible...and this fact is
dire. Once language becomes invisible, George Bush can call a war "Operation
Desert Storm" and everyone gets onboard because, after all, an "operation" is
performed to make a sick patient well again, is performed under very
controlled, brightly lit, safe, highly sanitary conditions. The culture fails to
notice that language, a thing, is being used by very evil people to the detriment
of that culture. The culture fails to notice that a more appropriate name for
the killing (not healing) of thousands of people would be "The fuckin' war."
My work thus attempts to get a reading audience to notice the language, its
thing-ness. I hope, despite the inevitable fruitlessness of my attempts, to
undermine the McDonaldsification of language.
Writing means the promise of the ability to gain some control, to acquire
some power, and, unlike our oppressors, use that control and power, I hope, to
truthful ends. Further, the ability to read critically means the ability to
wrest power away from your oppressors and see what they are up to. I want my
readers to learn to see how the big "they" out there through their use of
persuasive rhetoric, are continually creating texts that work against us by appealing
to our sense of intellectual or aesthetic pleasure which, more often than
not, can be turned into a means of strengthening, justifying, or concealing a
text's hidden agenda.
Meg writes:
And beer on Thursdays. Anyone have qualms with Jupiters? Perhaps we should go somewhere where there is liquor for William.
Well, I have to recommend that we alternate each week between Berkeley and
Oakland. For me, Jupiters isn't great because it's not all that easily
accessible to a wheelchair. I'd recommend The White Horse on Telegraph Ave., Jack
Spicer's old hangout. Maybe we could raise his ghost. But whatever.
Kristen writes:
Personally, I've never harbored any delusions that anything I've written
(poetically) with political content would change somebody's viewpoint. What it
might do for someone though, is what it does for me: take a subject with which
I'm already concerned and help me see new points of entry, new connections,
new points to ponder.
I want to weigh in on this topic, want to give a run at articulating a
possible role of the political in writing. I believe that two aspects of my writing
(as it takes its place in some sort of general context of the avant garde) h
as three aspects about it that are deeply political (these three aspects, by
the way, may be troublingly contradictory):
1) My writing is highly theoretical and predicated on experimentation and as
such most people don't "get" it, yet it invites readers to collaborate in a
potentially pleasurable process of semantic construction. I am interested in
lacunae, in the interstitial frontiers of language. The texts ask a reader, if
she wishes, to construct larger wholes of which the given language elements
register only a part. If the writing is successful, it moves beyond the page,
challenging my readers; if the work works, it converges in conversation with
what one usually thinks of as "language" writing, offering, at once, a
materialist critique and lyric celebration of late capitalist culture's working
machinery, bounding out an idiomatic syntax of dialectic possibility. My work sings
a Whitmanesque cacophony of voices that strive to join, as Allen Ginsberg
writes in HOWL (Pocket Poets Series, 1974):
...incarnate gaps in Time & Space through
images juxtaposed, and tra[p] the archangel of the soul
between 2 visual images and joi[n] the elemental verbs
and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping
with sensation...(p. 16)
Influenced in part by Bebop, a completely democratic form of American
experimental music, my work attempts to give voice to the ineluctable, standing on
the limnal of what we can think and say in an attempt to let "others" speak.
2) I imagine that the first viewers of images on the walls of caves (if in
fact there ever were such viewers) didn't necessarily intend for the
buffalo-looking thing on the wall to stand as a representation of the angry animal in
real-time. Or perhaps the image was meant to be understood not as a
representation at all, but instead inside a completely different paradigm as something
"other" made in worshipful reverence to the gods of the hunt. Perhaps the
trouble is that over time this worshipful reverence of the material world that may
have once been the goal of art has been forgotten, audiences becoming
gradually and variously complacent, addicted to representation and narrative.
Audiences (in the main) no longer want to work at it.
We, these many centuries after the first artists, have as a culture now
forgotten to take note of the spectral in the common; I hope in my work to get
closer to actual experience by rejecting simple representation, suggesting that
actual life in the Diaspora is in fact much more complex and difficult and
mysterious than a simple story of a green leafy thing blowing in the wind; that a
tree is in fact impossible to capture, ever, in all of its beauty and history
and biology and weather and existence in time and space; that the very desire
to capture the tree in the first place is somehow wrong-headed. Objects in the
world are creations of the godhead to be approached with worshipful awe.
Indeed, during the Middle Ages artists made numerous icons of the Virgin Mary
covered in goldlief, etc., that we've all seen in art history books. These
artists were fully aware that these objects had absolutely nothing to do with what
the gods may actually "look" like. The religious icon is thus a separate
entity, a thing in itself. It doesn't even try to represent the gods.
Thus, in my work I hope to maintain that the painting of the tree as a green
leafy thing outside the window is somehow false and simplistic, that the word
"tree" stops the action of the object that we experience in the "real" world
and therefore does not do it justice. As such, my work has a pedagogical, even
Messianic, agenda: I hope to help get the culture back on-track, to jump
tracks in order to get to the other side, de-mystifying the act of reading; I
want readers to unlearn their lazy habits, to become more like writers,
distinguishing with intention, deliberation, between signifier and signified. I
believe that language is a thing in itself, is not transparent. I believe--dare I
say?--that representation is somehow even morally wrong. Difficulty is good,
is to be embraced; that is, a reader does not necessarily have to have a good
time while reading my work, though I do hope in my work, despite its clamorous
appropriation of language, to achieve, paradoxically, silence. Beauty,
silence. As artists, we will never get there (wherever that is), may only convince
one or two people during our careers of the fact of language's thing-ness, but
it is our moral and political responsibility as citizens to try with
everything we've got. That's beauty. When I grow up, I want to be Marilyn Monk.
3) Writing must be a deeply political activity because the only phenomenon
with which writing has always been concomitant is the creation of cities and
empires: the integration of large numbers of individuals into a political
system, and their grading into castes or classes. Such, at any rate, is the
typical pattern of development to be observed from Egypt to China at the time when
writing first emerged: writing seems to have favored the exploitation of human
beings rather than their enlightenment. This exploitation, which made it
possible to assemble thousands of workers and force them to carry out exhausting
and inhumane tasks, is the fulcrum upon which civilization rests, and it is
this fact that we are up against in this class. That is, if my hypothesis is
correct, it would oblige us to recognize the fact that the primary function of
written communication is to facilitate a master-slave relationship between
authors and audiences, between those who sell the material of consciousness and
those who buy it, between those who are empowered and those who are
disenfranchised.
Let me then generalize that, on some level, as the culture proceeds through
history, as passivity and entropy set in, members of a reading culture
increasingly take representation and narrative as fact, audiences for example
supporting a wicked and violent action taken against a sovereign nation in part
because Colin Powell says that the fuzzy black and white images projected on a
screen are actual satellite photos of "weapons of mass destruction." Everybody
buys it. No body looks AT what's going on; everybody looks THROUGH the language
to what it represents. The language thus becomes invisible...and this fact is
dire. Once language becomes invisible, George Bush can call a war "Operation
Desert Storm" and everyone gets onboard because, after all, an "operation" is
performed to make a sick patient well again, is performed under very
controlled, brightly lit, safe, highly sanitary conditions. The culture fails to
notice that language, a thing, is being used by very evil people to the detriment
of that culture. The culture fails to notice that a more appropriate name for
the killing (not healing) of thousands of people would be "The fuckin' war."
My work thus attempts to get a reading audience to notice the language, its
thing-ness. I hope, despite the inevitable fruitlessness of my attempts, to
undermine the McDonaldsification of language.
Writing means the promise of the ability to gain some control, to acquire
some power, and, unlike our oppressors, use that control and power, I hope, to
truthful ends. Further, the ability to read critically means the ability to
wrest power away from your oppressors and see what they are up to. I want my
readers to learn to see how the big "they" out there through their use of
persuasive rhetoric, are continually creating texts that work against us by appealing
to our sense of intellectual or aesthetic pleasure which, more often than
not, can be turned into a means of strengthening, justifying, or concealing a
text's hidden agenda.
Saturday, February 14, 2004
I guess Jessea’s question is married to the question of taste, on a fundamental level. As I said outside while you were smoking your cancer stick, when a poem doesn’t immediately resonate, I begin to think about how it’s different from what I want it to be- and try to use that as a point of access. By that I mean just trying to glean something interesting from its structure, from how it is opposite to what I do. But then when a poem does resonate, it’s because it isn’t pretentious, and by that I mean it contains openings, and by that I mean it is available on some level but not too available, and by that I mean it doesn’t make me feel stupid or annoyed, and by that I mean maybe I learn something or that it is helpful in some way and by that I mean maybe it was beautiful or maybe it was political. I like writers who seem wholly smart. If a writer isn’t being smart, I’m not interested. The question framed differently could be posed as: Why do we read? I don’t think it’s enough to say that we read because we also write and thus are interested in what other people write. For me, there has to be that goal (however elusive it proves at times to be) of gleaning something- pleasure, knowledge, an intellectual challenge, expanded interest. I don’t know.
Someone posed an interesting question to me last night. They asked if I could see where I wanted to be with my writing as a place distinct from where I am with it. And I think that question married to Jessea’s perhaps gets even more interesting: Are the poems that we are writing also the poems that we would want to be reading? You assume yes, or that the goal is yes, but for me I think I’m not there yet. So then, how does one get to where they want to be? It seems like a good part of it is paying attention to what you like and why. So then I guess Jessea’s question about reading, for me is most helpful if thought of in that way: I mean comparing the poems you consider “readable” to your own, and beginning to break down similarities, disparities, etc.
I’m going on the B.A.R.G.E. walk tomorrow and hopefully bringing my dad. Anyone else going? And beer on Thursdays. Anyone have qualms with Jupiters? Perhaps we should go somewhere where there is liquor for William.
Someone posed an interesting question to me last night. They asked if I could see where I wanted to be with my writing as a place distinct from where I am with it. And I think that question married to Jessea’s perhaps gets even more interesting: Are the poems that we are writing also the poems that we would want to be reading? You assume yes, or that the goal is yes, but for me I think I’m not there yet. So then, how does one get to where they want to be? It seems like a good part of it is paying attention to what you like and why. So then I guess Jessea’s question about reading, for me is most helpful if thought of in that way: I mean comparing the poems you consider “readable” to your own, and beginning to break down similarities, disparities, etc.
I’m going on the B.A.R.G.E. walk tomorrow and hopefully bringing my dad. Anyone else going? And beer on Thursdays. Anyone have qualms with Jupiters? Perhaps we should go somewhere where there is liquor for William.
Friday, February 13, 2004
This is in response to Jessea's last paragraph of her Manisfesto. (But yes, Jessea, I read the whole thing! It's really you! I like it.)
To continue with Plato a bit (since Stevens was using the horses and charioteer image in the essay and I think Plato rocks): Plato thinks that when we see something we find beautiful (like "I like this line here"), we recollect itsy bit of the Beauty that resides in heaven. And by this very act, the charioteer is able to drive the two horses a bit closer to heaven; our soul is lifted up closer to the Truth by seeing something beautiful. This is all Plato. Which I think it's beautiful.
How is this political? Again, I remain an idealist. I think I was talking to you, Jessea (was I? right?), that if politics exists ideally to bring about a fair, just, happy society, everyone should be able to do what makes s/he happy on the conditions that anything that makes anyone unhappy shouldn't make anyone happy. Seeing something beautiful and feeling good about it might be a political act by this rather impossible claim.
my politics !?!!
(thanks to Juliana) what is making me happy now is that I am gradually finding the companionship between what might be my politics and my poetics. it's about the english language (sorry if this sounds repetitive. I think it is. I'll be brief). I am getting excited about the fact that what I am writing now might actually speak to what I think the world might benefit from insignificant someone like me. I want the world to think about the english language more critically (in a good, knowledgeable way) and less go-with-the-flow-ly. But maybe the world is already thinking that. on that note, Juliana, may i borrow some of those books over spring break?
helps here plezz: how does something highly "out-there" and supposed-to-be universal like philosophy fit in with poetry? how do they relate? how would philosophical poems get placed politically? The last question is really for me. (wink)
To continue with Plato a bit (since Stevens was using the horses and charioteer image in the essay and I think Plato rocks): Plato thinks that when we see something we find beautiful (like "I like this line here"), we recollect itsy bit of the Beauty that resides in heaven. And by this very act, the charioteer is able to drive the two horses a bit closer to heaven; our soul is lifted up closer to the Truth by seeing something beautiful. This is all Plato. Which I think it's beautiful.
How is this political? Again, I remain an idealist. I think I was talking to you, Jessea (was I? right?), that if politics exists ideally to bring about a fair, just, happy society, everyone should be able to do what makes s/he happy on the conditions that anything that makes anyone unhappy shouldn't make anyone happy. Seeing something beautiful and feeling good about it might be a political act by this rather impossible claim.
my politics !?!!
(thanks to Juliana) what is making me happy now is that I am gradually finding the companionship between what might be my politics and my poetics. it's about the english language (sorry if this sounds repetitive. I think it is. I'll be brief). I am getting excited about the fact that what I am writing now might actually speak to what I think the world might benefit from insignificant someone like me. I want the world to think about the english language more critically (in a good, knowledgeable way) and less go-with-the-flow-ly. But maybe the world is already thinking that. on that note, Juliana, may i borrow some of those books over spring break?
helps here plezz: how does something highly "out-there" and supposed-to-be universal like philosophy fit in with poetry? how do they relate? how would philosophical poems get placed politically? The last question is really for me. (wink)
i forgot about beers on thursday night. please remind me.
jessea! interesting!
sometimes i think when this political question dissolves, as it does when the work isn't tied to clear political movements--in the way that trask's is tied to sovereignty or in the way that sandinista poets were tied to that revolution--that i turn to myself. and i say, well my political life was changed by poetry. somewhat. i'm still trying to sort out how much of this was was social and how much of it in the work. probably some combination of both.
i think rodrigo's book platform is great because it is trying to build (rebuild?) ties b/t form and clear political moments. it states its affiliations very clearly. i like that. no chance of confusion?
i think what i like about this question is that i am still trying to think this through. and one question i have is how to tie poetry to various political movements that matter to me. the anti-globalization movement matters to me. ok, now what? what does that mean for my writing? but also for my way of life? (b/c both come together no matter what.)
jessea! interesting!
sometimes i think when this political question dissolves, as it does when the work isn't tied to clear political movements--in the way that trask's is tied to sovereignty or in the way that sandinista poets were tied to that revolution--that i turn to myself. and i say, well my political life was changed by poetry. somewhat. i'm still trying to sort out how much of this was was social and how much of it in the work. probably some combination of both.
i think rodrigo's book platform is great because it is trying to build (rebuild?) ties b/t form and clear political moments. it states its affiliations very clearly. i like that. no chance of confusion?
i think what i like about this question is that i am still trying to think this through. and one question i have is how to tie poetry to various political movements that matter to me. the anti-globalization movement matters to me. ok, now what? what does that mean for my writing? but also for my way of life? (b/c both come together no matter what.)
In my music class yesterday, somebody posited that, despite all his Zen leanings, John Cage was, in the end, an egotist. He was a rhetorician and put forth a certain view of the world -- a certain "right way" of being in the world -- and one must have an ego to do so, the argument went (or at least this is how I understood it). But I wonder if it can really be construed as an act of egotism to set forth ideas with the aim of making the world a better place, of eliminating suffering (on the other hand, to argue that jazz is a worthless music is not, in my mind, making the world a better place, but that's a different argument for a different day). Which leads me to the ongoing question of what good is political poetry, which was discussed at length in what is becoming a lovely tradition, the thursday night poets' circle (oh, god, I see us being canonized already, Virginia Woolf, watch out!).
Anyway, we of course touched on the issue of "preaching to the converted" and I got to thinking about Cage's Diary: How to Improve the World (You Will Only Make it Worse), 1965 and how much I love the piece. Now, of course, the reason I love the piece is because for the most part I share Cage's view of the world. Lines that resonate especially with me include:
What
about Stein's idea: People are the way
their land and air is?
*
War will not be
group conflict: it'll be murder, pure
and simple, individually conceived
*
Treat redwoods, for
instance, as entities that have at
least a chance to win.
OK, so I don't think Cage won any converts to his "cause" (what cause? this piece is all over the map) with this poem. What this poem does do, though, is it inspires me. It makes me feel like there is a reason to continue everything I do: writing work, political work, living work. I was trying to articulate to Dan last night why I think someone like Rodrigo Toscano's writing is really important and, to be honest, I don't think I came up with any real compelling argument. Here's what I wrote about his latest, Platform, though: "the steadfast and inspirational implication of all his work [is] that we - as activists, as artists, as humans - have both the ability and the obligation to create our own "series of standoffs/before the standoff." Platform may well be the tract of choice for such a showdown."
If we choose to carry on any type of even remotely enlightened (and I mean that in a Zen, not "better than thou," way), whether it be railing against political/economic/social systems, remaining dedicated to our art, raising a family, building communities of any sort, what have you, we need fuel for our fire. These are not easy things to choose to devote oneself to in the 21st century. For me, it means the world to know there are others on my side and to have them articulate that in ways that resonate -- deeply -- with me. (The work does not necessarily have to have political content to resonate, incidentally. We need to take care of our emotional and imaginative selves, too. As if all those facets aren't inextricably linked.)
Personally, I've never harbored any delusions that anything I've written (poetically) with political content would change somebody's viewpoint. What it might do for someone though, is what it does for me: take a subject with which I'm already concerned and help me see new points of entry, new connections, new points to ponder.
Should we/can we do any more than that? (This is not a rhetorical question)
Anyway, we of course touched on the issue of "preaching to the converted" and I got to thinking about Cage's Diary: How to Improve the World (You Will Only Make it Worse), 1965 and how much I love the piece. Now, of course, the reason I love the piece is because for the most part I share Cage's view of the world. Lines that resonate especially with me include:
What
about Stein's idea: People are the way
their land and air is?
*
War will not be
group conflict: it'll be murder, pure
and simple, individually conceived
*
Treat redwoods, for
instance, as entities that have at
least a chance to win.
OK, so I don't think Cage won any converts to his "cause" (what cause? this piece is all over the map) with this poem. What this poem does do, though, is it inspires me. It makes me feel like there is a reason to continue everything I do: writing work, political work, living work. I was trying to articulate to Dan last night why I think someone like Rodrigo Toscano's writing is really important and, to be honest, I don't think I came up with any real compelling argument. Here's what I wrote about his latest, Platform, though: "the steadfast and inspirational implication of all his work [is] that we - as activists, as artists, as humans - have both the ability and the obligation to create our own "series of standoffs/before the standoff." Platform may well be the tract of choice for such a showdown."
If we choose to carry on any type of even remotely enlightened (and I mean that in a Zen, not "better than thou," way), whether it be railing against political/economic/social systems, remaining dedicated to our art, raising a family, building communities of any sort, what have you, we need fuel for our fire. These are not easy things to choose to devote oneself to in the 21st century. For me, it means the world to know there are others on my side and to have them articulate that in ways that resonate -- deeply -- with me. (The work does not necessarily have to have political content to resonate, incidentally. We need to take care of our emotional and imaginative selves, too. As if all those facets aren't inextricably linked.)
Personally, I've never harbored any delusions that anything I've written (poetically) with political content would change somebody's viewpoint. What it might do for someone though, is what it does for me: take a subject with which I'm already concerned and help me see new points of entry, new connections, new points to ponder.
Should we/can we do any more than that? (This is not a rhetorical question)
MANIFESTO
Warning: this is a really long post and maybe not helpful or relevant to anyone but myself. I apologize, but I don’t see any other way to say this. Then we can return to previous discussion of manageable things.
There are so many things I want to say & to figure out. Let me start with Juliana’s essay about the Auden line, “Poetry makes nothing happen,” about her experiences in graduate school & her position on the necessarily political role poetry plays, or should. This question was germinating last semester, in the craft class. I have been writing poetry for many years, not as many as some of you, but as long as I have been able to write. I did my undergraduate work at UC Santa Cruz in poetry. And then I was out in the world & poetry became kind of an amorphous presence through absence. Poetry for me, when I was out of school, was something I thought of so much but I did not have the community of thinkers that I have now. What I mean to say is, when I was not talking about poetry, when I was only thinking about it on my own, I was not asked these questions. These questions of politics. Because I never thought about it that way, and I did not seek out the community that would have been discussing it. When I was in the craft class, I was immediately shocked to be outside of my own head, and to remember what should have been obvious and present, but which was not. That is: I had to suddenly confront the fact that there are so many people writing for reasons which I had never considered. They just did not occur to me. When I heard (remembered) that there were these Language poets, whose explicitly stated primary goal was to strip language of what it was, what it is, I immediately understood the idea, but couldn’t understand how one could continue to do this, or try to do this, for a long period of time, over many poems. Yes, the concept makes logical sense: language is a form of control, language and society are interdependent, to break down the control of the society means breaking down the language. But I don’t understand how one does that over and over. How one has the energy and passion to keep doing that. TO write more and more, to write every day, to keep making poems to try to do that. I thought, once you break down language, what else is there to do? What else is there to write? You’re done.
And in then our class we moved on to this War between the experimental and mainstream, and that was also interesting to me and incomprehensible. Because I honestly hadn’t really thought of poetry in those terms before. Yes, I went to UC Santa Cruz and Peter Gizzi was my teacher and he introduced me to poets I had never heard of. But I don’t remember ever thinking “Wow, this is so different from what I knew of as poetry.” It just seemed like more poetry, more language. I never thought of Adrienne Rich as “mainstream.” I guess I see it more now, but when I first read her I did not discriminate in that way. She blows my mind. So do experimental writers. So does the thesaurus, the desert, music both popular and not, so do movies, so does life. I don’t think I really discriminate in this way. There is something to be found in good narrative poetry. Something to be gained in classics. Something important to life in pop music. And “experimental poetry,” it’s just another style of poetry. It has words, I don’t care if you’re trying to strip the words of their meaning. For this reader, you have failed. I don’t think it’s human nature to accept meaninglessness. We make meaning. We make symbols. It has been going on forever. It can’t stop. And it isn’t necessarily harmful.
So suddenly these questions started swirling for me. Suddenly, I was asking myself and being asked questions which had never been posed for me before. For this, I am very grateful to Juliana. I don’t know if these questions would have been raised as much without her pushing. These questions don’t come up in the “regular format” workshop of which we are all so familiar. It’s hard & it’s important to ask these things.
So anyway, when she posted her essay, I felt like someone had taken a stand. I can’t express how happy I was that this happened. It was an absolute! You are working for the revolution, or you are complicit with the system. Of course, I totally disagreed with this, but I didn’t have the words to explain why. I hadn’t reasoned through it. So I started asking you guys about it. What does it mean to be political? What does political work look like? Does just using the words of politics mean a work is political? Does just using disjunctive syntax mean it is? I was never asking to confirm the original argument, I was looking for my own way of reasoning my way out of it. Because what happened was, in one paragraph, Juliana made me feel like I was on the side of the system unless I figured out a way to either be political or to justify another way of writing.
And then what happened was, I felt, the discussion went soft & vague. “Everything’s political.” “Just being a poet is political.” Etcetera. I was craving strong arguments, but no one had them. I still didn’t feel that politics was the only answer, but I wasn’t satisfied with what was offered to stand by it.
It’s funny, one day after class I was in the Tea Shop with Meg and Dennis. And I was telling them how I felt about all this, and I think I was a little depressed and beaten down and frustrated. And they commented on the religious overtones of my need to know these things. The questions verging on metaphysical issues. This made something clear to me: my question of the role of the poet was wound up with my question of life. Of what it means to live life, what is the purpose. With Juliana’s statement I had ended up in a crisis of faith and a crisis of asking these really Huge Questions of what it all means. When I realized what I was doing, it was a relief and it was scary. Because it meant that while I was never going to get the answers to unanswerable questions, it also meant that this thinking was important and was necessary and was so far away from my years of working 50 hour weeks at an advertising agency worried about working another weekend to get a client’s ads to a magazine or sitting miserably making hundreds of pdfs and Excel spreadsheets.
My first answer to why I write was this: I write because I feel nostalgia and longing for life in the moments as they occur. This made perfect sense to me but I need to say more, because I am currently constantly surprised as I am misunderstood when I say things succinctly. So here it goes. This is life, these are the trappings of mine and of others: work, money, cleaning and mopping, trash, food, driving, reading the paper, piles of books, dusty rugs, bills to pay, tourism, aging. I sit within this life. I sit here at my desk, I sit on my back stoop, I sit in my car driving the freeway to school. I sit alone, I sit with other people. Life made up of these little constant moments of unrealized reflection and observation. And then within this life there are times when things are for some reason heightened. We observe the sun falling at a certain orange angle at dusk, and we feel something. Or at least I do. I feel longing. I feel longing for the moments that lift us out of the dirty dishes and the subway and the traffic and the junk mail. Longing for the sun or extreme weather. Longing for the ability to look on everything as radiant. Longing, even, for the pain of someone I love dying, because it places me in a realm that is always surrounding the mundane world but is not always accessible. Longing for love even when I am in love. Longing for the past, the future. It’s a very anti-Buddhist way of living life but I think it is why I write.
When I was a kid I learned to read very young. I read constantly. I was given these books to read, and everyone agreed it was a good activity. The books made a promise to me that was broken by life. The books said there is adventure and magic. The books said there are passages in a closet that lead to Narnia. The books said that the mundane world is not the most important one. The books said maybe there are fairies and ghosts and time travel and kid detectives. This isn’t funny. This is a real problem. The world gives us these books and they shape our view of the world. And then as we grow up, one by one these things are taken away and are disproved. I would sit ay my desk in Manhattan and say “why am I here worried about the print quality of postcards and billboards?” I never thought this was what life was going to be. They never tell you this when you’re young. I’m really mad about it. I am honestly, humorlessly, angry. Angry that here I am and no one believes in ghosts and the imagination is an instrument of torture for what doesn’t exist.
This is a story, one example, one way of explaining the sorrow that covers life. The emptiness that surrounds of and which we write ourselves out of, which we read ourselves out of. We live lives wanting more than the lives we have. The war is a problem, the broken down car is a problem, the poisoning of the planet is a problem, but beyond these things, the need for more out of life is the big one. It’s really, the most important problem. And this is where art comes in. It has to. Or religion. Luckily I don’t see much of a difference between the two.
So last night I went to Stephen’s Modern American Poetry class and we talked about Wallace Stevens. And particularly the essay “The Noble Rider and the Sound of Words.” This is probably old hat to lots of you, but it was new to me. And I walked in and two different people said to me, “This essay answers your questions!” And I hadn’t read it but then I read the most important parts. And then today I read the whole thing. And it was like a popping zoom of an answer, finally. This is the answer I got. This is really only concentrating on the parts of the essay that I want to be the answer, and it’s probably a gross oversimplification of the essay, but I don’t care.
Here’s what I take from it. There is the reality, and then there is the imagination. For me, these two things are the words for the contrast I wrote about above. There is the world of stuff and politics and duty and money, which is reality. And then there is the need for more, which manifests itself in religion and art, which is the imagination. And the fascinating thing is that Stevens thinks the two are symbiotic. The imagination, the art, the spirit, must base its creations on the world. And the world, in change, becomes something different and shining when the art is there. Art gives the world its significance. Art needs the world first. It’s a beautiful idea. It’s helpful to me.
So the role of the poet is one who makes the world what it can be when it is important. The poet makes a poem of the bent spoon or the poverty or the war or the love or the silly dead cat or the potted plant, and turns the mundane world into something more. It’s the act of poetry that creates the possibility of nostalgia, and continues it, out of it, for it. This makes so much sense to me. Maybe it’s elitist and old-fashioned and wrong in some way. Go ahead and tell me how. Tell me how the authority of the writer over the reader is just like George Bush taking away our freedoms or something. It just sounds true to me and I can’t deny that.
This is my answer for me right now. This is my gauntlet. Somehow I got here.
On the question of what happens when we read that I was asking yesterday, and how I want some deep answer. That’s right, I do! This is the question. When you read something that strikes you in some way, that means something to you, I want to know why that is, and what happens in your brain when you read it. When we are in workshop and we say “Ooh, I really like this line here.” What do we mean? I suspect my answer will have a whole lot to do with the above long-windedness. In fact it might be the very question that made all that up there happen. I don’t know.
Warning: this is a really long post and maybe not helpful or relevant to anyone but myself. I apologize, but I don’t see any other way to say this. Then we can return to previous discussion of manageable things.
There are so many things I want to say & to figure out. Let me start with Juliana’s essay about the Auden line, “Poetry makes nothing happen,” about her experiences in graduate school & her position on the necessarily political role poetry plays, or should. This question was germinating last semester, in the craft class. I have been writing poetry for many years, not as many as some of you, but as long as I have been able to write. I did my undergraduate work at UC Santa Cruz in poetry. And then I was out in the world & poetry became kind of an amorphous presence through absence. Poetry for me, when I was out of school, was something I thought of so much but I did not have the community of thinkers that I have now. What I mean to say is, when I was not talking about poetry, when I was only thinking about it on my own, I was not asked these questions. These questions of politics. Because I never thought about it that way, and I did not seek out the community that would have been discussing it. When I was in the craft class, I was immediately shocked to be outside of my own head, and to remember what should have been obvious and present, but which was not. That is: I had to suddenly confront the fact that there are so many people writing for reasons which I had never considered. They just did not occur to me. When I heard (remembered) that there were these Language poets, whose explicitly stated primary goal was to strip language of what it was, what it is, I immediately understood the idea, but couldn’t understand how one could continue to do this, or try to do this, for a long period of time, over many poems. Yes, the concept makes logical sense: language is a form of control, language and society are interdependent, to break down the control of the society means breaking down the language. But I don’t understand how one does that over and over. How one has the energy and passion to keep doing that. TO write more and more, to write every day, to keep making poems to try to do that. I thought, once you break down language, what else is there to do? What else is there to write? You’re done.
And in then our class we moved on to this War between the experimental and mainstream, and that was also interesting to me and incomprehensible. Because I honestly hadn’t really thought of poetry in those terms before. Yes, I went to UC Santa Cruz and Peter Gizzi was my teacher and he introduced me to poets I had never heard of. But I don’t remember ever thinking “Wow, this is so different from what I knew of as poetry.” It just seemed like more poetry, more language. I never thought of Adrienne Rich as “mainstream.” I guess I see it more now, but when I first read her I did not discriminate in that way. She blows my mind. So do experimental writers. So does the thesaurus, the desert, music both popular and not, so do movies, so does life. I don’t think I really discriminate in this way. There is something to be found in good narrative poetry. Something to be gained in classics. Something important to life in pop music. And “experimental poetry,” it’s just another style of poetry. It has words, I don’t care if you’re trying to strip the words of their meaning. For this reader, you have failed. I don’t think it’s human nature to accept meaninglessness. We make meaning. We make symbols. It has been going on forever. It can’t stop. And it isn’t necessarily harmful.
So suddenly these questions started swirling for me. Suddenly, I was asking myself and being asked questions which had never been posed for me before. For this, I am very grateful to Juliana. I don’t know if these questions would have been raised as much without her pushing. These questions don’t come up in the “regular format” workshop of which we are all so familiar. It’s hard & it’s important to ask these things.
So anyway, when she posted her essay, I felt like someone had taken a stand. I can’t express how happy I was that this happened. It was an absolute! You are working for the revolution, or you are complicit with the system. Of course, I totally disagreed with this, but I didn’t have the words to explain why. I hadn’t reasoned through it. So I started asking you guys about it. What does it mean to be political? What does political work look like? Does just using the words of politics mean a work is political? Does just using disjunctive syntax mean it is? I was never asking to confirm the original argument, I was looking for my own way of reasoning my way out of it. Because what happened was, in one paragraph, Juliana made me feel like I was on the side of the system unless I figured out a way to either be political or to justify another way of writing.
And then what happened was, I felt, the discussion went soft & vague. “Everything’s political.” “Just being a poet is political.” Etcetera. I was craving strong arguments, but no one had them. I still didn’t feel that politics was the only answer, but I wasn’t satisfied with what was offered to stand by it.
It’s funny, one day after class I was in the Tea Shop with Meg and Dennis. And I was telling them how I felt about all this, and I think I was a little depressed and beaten down and frustrated. And they commented on the religious overtones of my need to know these things. The questions verging on metaphysical issues. This made something clear to me: my question of the role of the poet was wound up with my question of life. Of what it means to live life, what is the purpose. With Juliana’s statement I had ended up in a crisis of faith and a crisis of asking these really Huge Questions of what it all means. When I realized what I was doing, it was a relief and it was scary. Because it meant that while I was never going to get the answers to unanswerable questions, it also meant that this thinking was important and was necessary and was so far away from my years of working 50 hour weeks at an advertising agency worried about working another weekend to get a client’s ads to a magazine or sitting miserably making hundreds of pdfs and Excel spreadsheets.
My first answer to why I write was this: I write because I feel nostalgia and longing for life in the moments as they occur. This made perfect sense to me but I need to say more, because I am currently constantly surprised as I am misunderstood when I say things succinctly. So here it goes. This is life, these are the trappings of mine and of others: work, money, cleaning and mopping, trash, food, driving, reading the paper, piles of books, dusty rugs, bills to pay, tourism, aging. I sit within this life. I sit here at my desk, I sit on my back stoop, I sit in my car driving the freeway to school. I sit alone, I sit with other people. Life made up of these little constant moments of unrealized reflection and observation. And then within this life there are times when things are for some reason heightened. We observe the sun falling at a certain orange angle at dusk, and we feel something. Or at least I do. I feel longing. I feel longing for the moments that lift us out of the dirty dishes and the subway and the traffic and the junk mail. Longing for the sun or extreme weather. Longing for the ability to look on everything as radiant. Longing, even, for the pain of someone I love dying, because it places me in a realm that is always surrounding the mundane world but is not always accessible. Longing for love even when I am in love. Longing for the past, the future. It’s a very anti-Buddhist way of living life but I think it is why I write.
When I was a kid I learned to read very young. I read constantly. I was given these books to read, and everyone agreed it was a good activity. The books made a promise to me that was broken by life. The books said there is adventure and magic. The books said there are passages in a closet that lead to Narnia. The books said that the mundane world is not the most important one. The books said maybe there are fairies and ghosts and time travel and kid detectives. This isn’t funny. This is a real problem. The world gives us these books and they shape our view of the world. And then as we grow up, one by one these things are taken away and are disproved. I would sit ay my desk in Manhattan and say “why am I here worried about the print quality of postcards and billboards?” I never thought this was what life was going to be. They never tell you this when you’re young. I’m really mad about it. I am honestly, humorlessly, angry. Angry that here I am and no one believes in ghosts and the imagination is an instrument of torture for what doesn’t exist.
This is a story, one example, one way of explaining the sorrow that covers life. The emptiness that surrounds of and which we write ourselves out of, which we read ourselves out of. We live lives wanting more than the lives we have. The war is a problem, the broken down car is a problem, the poisoning of the planet is a problem, but beyond these things, the need for more out of life is the big one. It’s really, the most important problem. And this is where art comes in. It has to. Or religion. Luckily I don’t see much of a difference between the two.
So last night I went to Stephen’s Modern American Poetry class and we talked about Wallace Stevens. And particularly the essay “The Noble Rider and the Sound of Words.” This is probably old hat to lots of you, but it was new to me. And I walked in and two different people said to me, “This essay answers your questions!” And I hadn’t read it but then I read the most important parts. And then today I read the whole thing. And it was like a popping zoom of an answer, finally. This is the answer I got. This is really only concentrating on the parts of the essay that I want to be the answer, and it’s probably a gross oversimplification of the essay, but I don’t care.
Here’s what I take from it. There is the reality, and then there is the imagination. For me, these two things are the words for the contrast I wrote about above. There is the world of stuff and politics and duty and money, which is reality. And then there is the need for more, which manifests itself in religion and art, which is the imagination. And the fascinating thing is that Stevens thinks the two are symbiotic. The imagination, the art, the spirit, must base its creations on the world. And the world, in change, becomes something different and shining when the art is there. Art gives the world its significance. Art needs the world first. It’s a beautiful idea. It’s helpful to me.
So the role of the poet is one who makes the world what it can be when it is important. The poet makes a poem of the bent spoon or the poverty or the war or the love or the silly dead cat or the potted plant, and turns the mundane world into something more. It’s the act of poetry that creates the possibility of nostalgia, and continues it, out of it, for it. This makes so much sense to me. Maybe it’s elitist and old-fashioned and wrong in some way. Go ahead and tell me how. Tell me how the authority of the writer over the reader is just like George Bush taking away our freedoms or something. It just sounds true to me and I can’t deny that.
This is my answer for me right now. This is my gauntlet. Somehow I got here.
On the question of what happens when we read that I was asking yesterday, and how I want some deep answer. That’s right, I do! This is the question. When you read something that strikes you in some way, that means something to you, I want to know why that is, and what happens in your brain when you read it. When we are in workshop and we say “Ooh, I really like this line here.” What do we mean? I suspect my answer will have a whole lot to do with the above long-windedness. In fact it might be the very question that made all that up there happen. I don’t know.
on jessea's question about how one reads a poem...
i know she wants some deep answer. but i realized this winter when i taught a workshop at goddard, a master poetry workshop that i hate to teach b/c i hate the idea of master poetry, i realized that i read a huge amount into the shape of poem on page. everyone had submitted these one page poems that went half way across the page and then they had a similar tone and it was annoying to me.
and then last weekend i opened this book that joel kuszai had and saw it was all poems of 12-20 lines that went half way across the page and i put it down and said this is not for me.
ron silliman had this thing on his blog about a year ago where he was reading Wesleyan U P in the early days, the days when he said it really mattered, which to him is in the negative sense. and he said this about a list of about 30 books: “The form was relatively simple – maybe one ‘major’ poem of as much as twelve pages, surrounded by a series of one-page pieces, coming to anywhere between 60 & 100 pages total &, if you were part of the ‘core’ group, one such book every three or so years.” i imagine Ron’s reading is not totally fair. but i have to admit that i often read with more interest when i see a book whose page breaks this form.
in the other class, jessea was asking of yedda, something like what if the ambiguity is too ambigious. what if we read this book and can't get the politics. and as we were talking about this i was thinking about how the fragmented form has become a certain shorthand for a certain politics. so the form would hold those who read in the tradition to a certain assumption of politics. but it might not if you don't read in the tradition.
which made me think some about what assumptions we atrophy into. i think i've atrophied against the one page poem. and then too quickly forgiven anything that does the opposite.
i know she wants some deep answer. but i realized this winter when i taught a workshop at goddard, a master poetry workshop that i hate to teach b/c i hate the idea of master poetry, i realized that i read a huge amount into the shape of poem on page. everyone had submitted these one page poems that went half way across the page and then they had a similar tone and it was annoying to me.
and then last weekend i opened this book that joel kuszai had and saw it was all poems of 12-20 lines that went half way across the page and i put it down and said this is not for me.
ron silliman had this thing on his blog about a year ago where he was reading Wesleyan U P in the early days, the days when he said it really mattered, which to him is in the negative sense. and he said this about a list of about 30 books: “The form was relatively simple – maybe one ‘major’ poem of as much as twelve pages, surrounded by a series of one-page pieces, coming to anywhere between 60 & 100 pages total &, if you were part of the ‘core’ group, one such book every three or so years.” i imagine Ron’s reading is not totally fair. but i have to admit that i often read with more interest when i see a book whose page breaks this form.
in the other class, jessea was asking of yedda, something like what if the ambiguity is too ambigious. what if we read this book and can't get the politics. and as we were talking about this i was thinking about how the fragmented form has become a certain shorthand for a certain politics. so the form would hold those who read in the tradition to a certain assumption of politics. but it might not if you don't read in the tradition.
which made me think some about what assumptions we atrophy into. i think i've atrophied against the one page poem. and then too quickly forgiven anything that does the opposite.
this is from dennis.... he says it is good!
The following events are being held in conjunction with Meridian's
current exhibition: Hubris Corpulentus: Political Prints by Art
Hazelwood which runs thru February 28, 2004
Panel Discussion
Functions & Uses of Political Art Now
Panel Moderator: Peter Selz
Panel: Art Hazelwood, Jos Sances & DeWitt Cheng
Saturday, February 14, 2004; 2 p.m.
Artists Show Their Wares: From Rags to Posters
Artists and activists alike are invited to share their anti-war art
work.
If you'd like to bring something to share call 415.398.7229.
Saturday, February 21, 2004; 2 p.m.
New!
The American Friends Service Committee and Meridian Gallery present
Empire: Costs and Consequences, a Dialogue with Dr. Joseph Gerson, Gwyn
Kirk and Christine Cordero
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 at 7pm
Gallery hours
11 a.m. - 5 p.m.
Tuesday - Saturday
contact
Corinna Press 415.398.7229
Panel Discussion, Functions & Uses of Political Art Now on Saturday,
February 14, 2004 beginning at 2 p.m.
Peter Selz will moderate the panel made up of Art Hazelwood, Jos Sances
& DeWitt Cheng. The panel will focus on political art as it is
manifested in contemporary society; the relevancy of political visual
art for a wider community in the wake of the war in Iraq. Peter Selz
is
an author, art historian, curator, founding director Berkeley Art
Museum
at the UC Berkeley. Selz is completing work on a book that deals with
40 years of political art in California. Jos Sances runs Alliance
Graphics, the only union screen print company in the United States
which
donates profits to the Middle East Children's Alliance. Sances, a
political artist, recently showed his mixed media painted sculptures at
the Richmond Art Center. He was loudly attacked for his show in
Vallejo, California which used Thomas Kincaid images to parody American
culture. DeWitt Cheng is a painter and writes for Artweek,
DailyGusto.com and SlurryMagazine.com.
Artists Show Their Wares: From Rags to Posters, February 21, 2004,
Saturday at 2 p.m.
Anti-war protests this past winter sparked a cottage industry of
political imagery on signs, billboards, T-shirts, patches, buttons,
bumper stickers, banners, performances. Many people who never before
made political art found themselves driven to put their outrage into
form. This open house event invites artists to share their political
voice with each other and the community. Both artists who have never
before felt inspired to make political art and those who have been
working on political art for years will participate. The artists will
present their work and speak about the inspiration for it. This is an
excellent opportunity to gauge the expressive power of an activated art
community both for artists and the public. If you are interested in
sharing your work please call Meridian Gallery: 415.398.7229.
Hubris Corpulentus: Prints by Art Hazelwood (January 15 - February 28,
2004)
The exhibition of Art Hazelwood's prints continues through February 28.
Hubris Corpulentus is a state of obscene, overweening pride that
produces monstrous realities out of the stupor of irrationality. The
handbooks of psychological disorders offer no such term. The prints of
Art Hazelwood lay claim to such a title in their representations of
Wall
Street, war and the absurdities of society. Over thirty-five of his
prints are on display at Meridian Gallery.
MERIDIAN GALLERY
Society for Art Publications of the Americas
545 Sutter Street, Suite 201
San Francisco, CA 94102
info@meridiangallery.org
www.meridiangallery.org
t: 415.398.7229
f: 415.398.6176
The following events are being held in conjunction with Meridian's
current exhibition: Hubris Corpulentus: Political Prints by Art
Hazelwood which runs thru February 28, 2004
Panel Discussion
Functions & Uses of Political Art Now
Panel Moderator: Peter Selz
Panel: Art Hazelwood, Jos Sances & DeWitt Cheng
Saturday, February 14, 2004; 2 p.m.
Artists Show Their Wares: From Rags to Posters
Artists and activists alike are invited to share their anti-war art
work.
If you'd like to bring something to share call 415.398.7229.
Saturday, February 21, 2004; 2 p.m.
New!
The American Friends Service Committee and Meridian Gallery present
Empire: Costs and Consequences, a Dialogue with Dr. Joseph Gerson, Gwyn
Kirk and Christine Cordero
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 at 7pm
Gallery hours
11 a.m. - 5 p.m.
Tuesday - Saturday
contact
Corinna Press 415.398.7229
Panel Discussion, Functions & Uses of Political Art Now on Saturday,
February 14, 2004 beginning at 2 p.m.
Peter Selz will moderate the panel made up of Art Hazelwood, Jos Sances
& DeWitt Cheng. The panel will focus on political art as it is
manifested in contemporary society; the relevancy of political visual
art for a wider community in the wake of the war in Iraq. Peter Selz
is
an author, art historian, curator, founding director Berkeley Art
Museum
at the UC Berkeley. Selz is completing work on a book that deals with
40 years of political art in California. Jos Sances runs Alliance
Graphics, the only union screen print company in the United States
which
donates profits to the Middle East Children's Alliance. Sances, a
political artist, recently showed his mixed media painted sculptures at
the Richmond Art Center. He was loudly attacked for his show in
Vallejo, California which used Thomas Kincaid images to parody American
culture. DeWitt Cheng is a painter and writes for Artweek,
DailyGusto.com and SlurryMagazine.com.
Artists Show Their Wares: From Rags to Posters, February 21, 2004,
Saturday at 2 p.m.
Anti-war protests this past winter sparked a cottage industry of
political imagery on signs, billboards, T-shirts, patches, buttons,
bumper stickers, banners, performances. Many people who never before
made political art found themselves driven to put their outrage into
form. This open house event invites artists to share their political
voice with each other and the community. Both artists who have never
before felt inspired to make political art and those who have been
working on political art for years will participate. The artists will
present their work and speak about the inspiration for it. This is an
excellent opportunity to gauge the expressive power of an activated art
community both for artists and the public. If you are interested in
sharing your work please call Meridian Gallery: 415.398.7229.
Hubris Corpulentus: Prints by Art Hazelwood (January 15 - February 28,
2004)
The exhibition of Art Hazelwood's prints continues through February 28.
Hubris Corpulentus is a state of obscene, overweening pride that
produces monstrous realities out of the stupor of irrationality. The
handbooks of psychological disorders offer no such term. The prints of
Art Hazelwood lay claim to such a title in their representations of
Wall
Street, war and the absurdities of society. Over thirty-five of his
prints are on display at Meridian Gallery.
MERIDIAN GALLERY
Society for Art Publications of the Americas
545 Sutter Street, Suite 201
San Francisco, CA 94102
t: 415.398.7229
f: 415.398.6176
Thursday, February 12, 2004
thanks juliana for the posting of the Waikiki site...what a trip to go back and see those place, so many intimate areas of Waikiki, that I of many have combed, trampled, swam at...all these memories come rushing back. More to investigate...and a great project for Oakland, or could be.
CATALINA CARIAGA
reading/workshop
Wednesday, February 18
7 pm
Mills Hall 322
free and open to the public
Long time Oakland resident, Catalina Cariaga is the author of Cultural Evidence (Subpress Collective, 1999). Her poems mix critique, history, autobiography, anecdote, and exploration of Filipina-American identity. Cultural Evidence is an intensely serious exploration of family and language, combining the uncanny authenticities of oral tradition and the most sophisticated mixed-use typeface technology, mirroring the diaspora of her family from the South Asian Pacific islands to California's rocky beaches and cities. Publisher’s Weekly notes about Cultural Evidence: “Whether deconstructing myths of anthropology’s objectivity, of ‘culture’ as defined by different, often incompatible world views, or self-sustaining myths of non-fluid time, nation, place or language, Cariaga’s passionate investigations provide ample evidence for their dispersal.”
instructions for workshop are at http://english250.blogspot.com
forthcoming talks/readings/discussions/workshops by oakland associated writers...
25-Feb truong tran
24-Mar chris chen
31-Mar tisa bryant
7-Apr eileen tabios and michelle batista
14-Apr rodrigo toscano
21-Apr renee gladman
contact Juliana Spahr, jspahr@mills.edu, for more information.
Series sponsored in part with funds from the Irvine Foundation at Mills College, from 'A 'A Arts, through a grant it has received from the National Endowment for the Arts, and Poets & Writers, Inc, through a grant it has received from the James Irvine Foundation.
reading/workshop
Wednesday, February 18
7 pm
Mills Hall 322
free and open to the public
Long time Oakland resident, Catalina Cariaga is the author of Cultural Evidence (Subpress Collective, 1999). Her poems mix critique, history, autobiography, anecdote, and exploration of Filipina-American identity. Cultural Evidence is an intensely serious exploration of family and language, combining the uncanny authenticities of oral tradition and the most sophisticated mixed-use typeface technology, mirroring the diaspora of her family from the South Asian Pacific islands to California's rocky beaches and cities. Publisher’s Weekly notes about Cultural Evidence: “Whether deconstructing myths of anthropology’s objectivity, of ‘culture’ as defined by different, often incompatible world views, or self-sustaining myths of non-fluid time, nation, place or language, Cariaga’s passionate investigations provide ample evidence for their dispersal.”
instructions for workshop are at http://english250.blogspot.com
forthcoming talks/readings/discussions/workshops by oakland associated writers...
25-Feb truong tran
24-Mar chris chen
31-Mar tisa bryant
7-Apr eileen tabios and michelle batista
14-Apr rodrigo toscano
21-Apr renee gladman
contact Juliana Spahr, jspahr@mills.edu, for more information.
Series sponsored in part with funds from the Irvine Foundation at Mills College, from 'A 'A Arts, through a grant it has received from the National Endowment for the Arts, and Poets & Writers, Inc, through a grant it has received from the James Irvine Foundation.
GRADUATING STUDENTS...
i mentioned this at workshop but since two of the people it might mean something to were not there, i thought i would post it here.
If graduating students desire, they might want to give workshop copies of their entire thesis for their second workshop. If they do this, they might want to direct readers who feel that reading a thesis is too much for them to certain pages within the thesis. But this would allow those who wish to read/talk about thesis as a whole the opportunity to do this. This is, however, not required. Just an opportunity.
this is the waikiki website that i've mentioned before (re: romney's post)... Historic Waikiki.
i mentioned this at workshop but since two of the people it might mean something to were not there, i thought i would post it here.
If graduating students desire, they might want to give workshop copies of their entire thesis for their second workshop. If they do this, they might want to direct readers who feel that reading a thesis is too much for them to certain pages within the thesis. But this would allow those who wish to read/talk about thesis as a whole the opportunity to do this. This is, however, not required. Just an opportunity.
this is the waikiki website that i've mentioned before (re: romney's post)... Historic Waikiki.
Wednesday, February 11, 2004
so sorry for the dis rup tion today, my leaving so quickly.....back to babies growing up, but not grown up enough, as it goes......anyway
I apologize to you, Kristin, being that it was supposed to be me facilitating..and I would be happy to discuss what I wrote with you directly...I was hoping for the dialogue, as sometimes hearing others and the writer himself, helps formulate my own thinking about a particular work.
As for our discussion prior to class, here is a brief summary. Correct me as you will, or please offer up another idea/or solution. Also, this may not be the right place to disseminate this info...and shoul we include other groups/or be selective of this process???
Poetry Walk:
Go on as many 'organized' walks as you can, a suggestion of maybe 3-5
Walks can include a localized tour, bay walk, the BARGE excursion, etc.
It would help if we/or someone organized a list of walks and dates and then posted it. It could be helpful if we went as a group (of some sorts) to these and made it like an 'event' in itself.
The Assignment: Write a prose paragraph response to each walk, or more, but then perhaps whittle it down for the final project. This becomes your working material.
The Project: a chapbook? a book of paragraphs/prose poems? (yet to be named, and fully realized) We need to write a proposal also for the graduate money.
I apologize to you, Kristin, being that it was supposed to be me facilitating..and I would be happy to discuss what I wrote with you directly...I was hoping for the dialogue, as sometimes hearing others and the writer himself, helps formulate my own thinking about a particular work.
As for our discussion prior to class, here is a brief summary. Correct me as you will, or please offer up another idea/or solution. Also, this may not be the right place to disseminate this info...and shoul we include other groups/or be selective of this process???
Poetry Walk:
Go on as many 'organized' walks as you can, a suggestion of maybe 3-5
Walks can include a localized tour, bay walk, the BARGE excursion, etc.
It would help if we/or someone organized a list of walks and dates and then posted it. It could be helpful if we went as a group (of some sorts) to these and made it like an 'event' in itself.
The Assignment: Write a prose paragraph response to each walk, or more, but then perhaps whittle it down for the final project. This becomes your working material.
The Project: a chapbook? a book of paragraphs/prose poems? (yet to be named, and fully realized) We need to write a proposal also for the graduate money.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
blog alert... http://mylifebylynhejinian.blogspot.com/
padcha, keep pushing on english issues b/c i think they have impact on all our writing in u.s. or is thing we all have to think about. what does it mean to be writing in english when english is so invasive right now. poetry is not as big an import as hollywood, but all of u.s. culture is still part of u.s. culture machine.
i do critical work on this english issue some. i'm trying to think about work that writes against this growth of english (b/c also large tradition in u.s. of bilingual writing) so here are some citations on basic introductory works...
there is a lot of discussion about global spread of english. a good, simple introduction is david crystal's global english. see also:
Phillipson, Robert. Linguistic Imperialism. New York: Oxford U P, 1992.
Pennycook, Alastair. The Cultural Politics of English As an International Language. New York: Addison-Wesley P, 1995.
lots of discussion of english in african literature context. big fight between ngugi wa thiongo who stopped writing in english and writes only in kikuyu some years ago. achebe takes other side.
here are classic citations:
Achebe, Chinua. “The African Writer and the English Language.” Morning Yet on Creation Day. London: Heinemann, 1975. 55-62.
Ngūgī wa Thiong’o. Decolonising the Mind: The Politics of Language in African Literature. Portsmouth: Heinemann, 1986.
Rushdie, Salman. “’Commonwealth Literature’ Does Not Exist.” Imaginary Homelands: Essays and Criticism: 1981-1991. New York: Viking Penguin, 1991. 61-70
Wali, Obiajunwa. “The Dead End of African Literature?” Transition 4 (1963): 14.
this book is good on english at the expense of other languages:
Nettle, Daniel and Suzanne Romaine. Vanishing Voices: The Extinction of the World’s Languages. New York: Oxford U P, 2000.
i have most of this in photocopy and/or book if you want to read.
i like dan's formulation of workshop as one way you learn how to read.
on meg's questions: i like these questions b/c i think if you don't ask them then you get bad anthropology. the questions have to be somewhat in the work. what might you have to say that might be useful about the mission? what sorts of political movements would you have to align your work with to have it be ethical? or would you? is there a difference between tony hillerman and muriel rukeyser? what would it be?
padcha, keep pushing on english issues b/c i think they have impact on all our writing in u.s. or is thing we all have to think about. what does it mean to be writing in english when english is so invasive right now. poetry is not as big an import as hollywood, but all of u.s. culture is still part of u.s. culture machine.
i do critical work on this english issue some. i'm trying to think about work that writes against this growth of english (b/c also large tradition in u.s. of bilingual writing) so here are some citations on basic introductory works...
there is a lot of discussion about global spread of english. a good, simple introduction is david crystal's global english. see also:
Phillipson, Robert. Linguistic Imperialism. New York: Oxford U P, 1992.
Pennycook, Alastair. The Cultural Politics of English As an International Language. New York: Addison-Wesley P, 1995.
lots of discussion of english in african literature context. big fight between ngugi wa thiongo who stopped writing in english and writes only in kikuyu some years ago. achebe takes other side.
here are classic citations:
Achebe, Chinua. “The African Writer and the English Language.” Morning Yet on Creation Day. London: Heinemann, 1975. 55-62.
Ngūgī wa Thiong’o. Decolonising the Mind: The Politics of Language in African Literature. Portsmouth: Heinemann, 1986.
Rushdie, Salman. “’Commonwealth Literature’ Does Not Exist.” Imaginary Homelands: Essays and Criticism: 1981-1991. New York: Viking Penguin, 1991. 61-70
Wali, Obiajunwa. “The Dead End of African Literature?” Transition 4 (1963): 14.
this book is good on english at the expense of other languages:
Nettle, Daniel and Suzanne Romaine. Vanishing Voices: The Extinction of the World’s Languages. New York: Oxford U P, 2000.
i have most of this in photocopy and/or book if you want to read.
i like dan's formulation of workshop as one way you learn how to read.
on meg's questions: i like these questions b/c i think if you don't ask them then you get bad anthropology. the questions have to be somewhat in the work. what might you have to say that might be useful about the mission? what sorts of political movements would you have to align your work with to have it be ethical? or would you? is there a difference between tony hillerman and muriel rukeyser? what would it be?
what I can say about babies, is that babies are good...bleach babies are a no no, never never bleach....
as for poetry and walking, I hope to make it to BARGE walk on Sunday too and like the idea of other walks and tours around the community.
I can't wrap my mind around all other discussions at the moment...went to Kathleen Fraser's reading/book party at Diesel on Sunday...very beautiful writing, prose like..and thoroughly infused with the "I"..which really struck me as interesting/curious...funny, etc, etc ...also picked up "Utopic" by Cluadia Keelan, which I have thoroughly enjoyed reading...her work seems to straddle the political and familial, emerging from place, and equally infused with a lyrical eye (I)...very solid work, diverse in language and relation to the page, quite startling and beautiful. Worth a read!!
as for poetry and walking, I hope to make it to BARGE walk on Sunday too and like the idea of other walks and tours around the community.
I can't wrap my mind around all other discussions at the moment...went to Kathleen Fraser's reading/book party at Diesel on Sunday...very beautiful writing, prose like..and thoroughly infused with the "I"..which really struck me as interesting/curious...funny, etc, etc ...also picked up "Utopic" by Cluadia Keelan, which I have thoroughly enjoyed reading...her work seems to straddle the political and familial, emerging from place, and equally infused with a lyrical eye (I)...very solid work, diverse in language and relation to the page, quite startling and beautiful. Worth a read!!
Is a poet of the past, let’s say one dead, an influence to us if he or she has influenced a poet who presently influences us now? An influence of an influence be an influence? Skip that. I think the question of influence is an important one and understanding the chain of progression (in poetry) is essential in aiding us to discover our own lineage for writing poems. I guess I’m going a roundabout way of saying I don’t find it absurd to call Wallace Stevens an influence on me. Though I agree with Meg that the ‘real’ teachers/influences are ones one can interact with, relate with, understand the context/conditions in which they are writing. I read some Stevens in high school and unfortunately the experience did not stick with me then (to the point where I can’t even recall what poems I read). But in my third year of undergrad I was introduced (reintroduced?) to the Stevens’ poem “The Man with the Blue Guitar” and it made such an impact on me. The possibility of an exphrastic poem, i.e. Stevens writing off of or translating Picasso’s painting, became my possibility. The language in that poem still manages to penetrate my writing. “Like light in a mirroring of cliffs, / rising upward from a sea of ex.” Every time I read it I still don’t know what it “means,” but I can feel the aforementioned impact, the ambiguity, the imagined thing, and realize its beauty for that. Old writing creating new possibilities. Which also brings me to Stevens’ ongoing discussion (with himself and his poems?) about bridging the gap between imagination and reality and perception and if Poetry is it’s only vehicle. I, too, have been reading Stevens lately. “Things as they are have been destroyed. / Have I? Am I a man that is dead / At a table on which the food is cold? / Is my thought a memory, not alive? / Is the spot on the floor, there, wine or blood / And whichever it may be, is it mine?” I find affinity with these lines and its effect on my own writing these days. Can we break the rules or expand on them without knowing who’s done it before us? Anyway, on to the next:
2 words: Bleach babies?
I’ll name mine powder.
The workshop: when we say things or write things, should we all know what each other is “talking about”? I like to be exposed as a reader, because sometimes I feel I’m not a good reader of poetry. So, I like to say (to whoever will listen) the workshops help me become better as a reader of poems. sometimes?
2 words: Bleach babies?
I’ll name mine powder.
The workshop: when we say things or write things, should we all know what each other is “talking about”? I like to be exposed as a reader, because sometimes I feel I’m not a good reader of poetry. So, I like to say (to whoever will listen) the workshops help me become better as a reader of poems. sometimes?
A few more thoughts:
In terms of the workshop format, I think it's got a lot of potential. Some of the difficulties that I'm struggling with:
How, when in the midst of a creative response, to not get selfish and start thinking: "this poem is for me. Hahaha." Because when that happens, I begin to twist it towards what I'm doing in my own writing and then it becomes less for them than for me. However, I guess the question is: As long as the initial thoughts that I had for the person remain very clear and very helpful, how far from their poem to stray is too far? Should we be looking at these creative responses as fodder for our own stacks, or really purely as help for this person? The initial thought process I think is very helpful for them, but the creative product seems less so.
Padcha, I like how you bring this non-North American perspective to our conversation here. In learning another language, I guess there is always that element of: "hahahahahahaha. i'm better now cause i'm bilingual." There's that element of wanting to be an expert because experts are looked up to, on some level admired. It seems as though poetry is an amazing venue to begin to break all of that down.
In terms of the workshop format, I think it's got a lot of potential. Some of the difficulties that I'm struggling with:
How, when in the midst of a creative response, to not get selfish and start thinking: "this poem is for me. Hahaha." Because when that happens, I begin to twist it towards what I'm doing in my own writing and then it becomes less for them than for me. However, I guess the question is: As long as the initial thoughts that I had for the person remain very clear and very helpful, how far from their poem to stray is too far? Should we be looking at these creative responses as fodder for our own stacks, or really purely as help for this person? The initial thought process I think is very helpful for them, but the creative product seems less so.
Padcha, I like how you bring this non-North American perspective to our conversation here. In learning another language, I guess there is always that element of: "hahahahahahaha. i'm better now cause i'm bilingual." There's that element of wanting to be an expert because experts are looked up to, on some level admired. It seems as though poetry is an amazing venue to begin to break all of that down.
This is a bit late. Sorry to those who won’t get a read in before class. I spent a couple of hours last night working through Wallace Stevens. The Idea of Order at Key West is an amazing poem. My curiosity is piqued at how different the process of reading Stevens is from reading someone like Elizabeth Treadwell. Though Stephen would balk to hear me say this- it seems as though The Idea of Order at Key West is a poem meant to be read, read again, and eventually understood. I mean, there is very nearly a plot, if a plot can merely be a thought process that we are supposed to follow. I guess it got me thinking about where Wallace Stevens comes into the current discussions we are engaged in. Of course reading the Romantics and the Modern American Poets is helpful in that it fleshes out our knowledge of the progression of things, but what else? Reading Wallace Stevens is a completely different type of reading than what we engage in when reading Treadwell (I’m just using her as an example of something that is being composed now.) I want to read The Idea of Order at Key West and appreciate it wholly, but there is this underlying question or gnawing that says: That’s not a poem that anyone now would ever think or dare to write. What can it teach me then? I guess the question I’m getting at- how does one use those old poets as teachers? When someone asks me, “Who are your influences?” how come replying “Wallace Stevens,” feels absurd to me? I feel as though the real teachers, the real influences for me can only be people who are writing now, and in such a way that it forces me to constantly re-examine how to read, why to read etc.
I have been thinking recently about starting to write in depth about the neighborhood where I live (The Mission). I’m trying to figure out a way of getting some of this stuff down on paper. I want to map out the schools and the taquerias, the hills and the wedding boutiques. That all seems doable, but how do I approach writing about the Hispanic men lining Folsom street daily looking for work? I’d like to bring a plate of sandwiches and sit down with them to talk about their stories. I’d like to shirk the feeling that it’s not my place to do that. Is it my place to do that? As a passive onlooker, it seems foolish to attempt writing about people or place, but then the question that I'm interested in is, how to use writing to enter into the place, how to use writing as the vehicle to a more proactive approach at living in a place. Any suggestions? Meeting for beer on Thursday was a good start to something. Let’s do that again.
I have been thinking recently about starting to write in depth about the neighborhood where I live (The Mission). I’m trying to figure out a way of getting some of this stuff down on paper. I want to map out the schools and the taquerias, the hills and the wedding boutiques. That all seems doable, but how do I approach writing about the Hispanic men lining Folsom street daily looking for work? I’d like to bring a plate of sandwiches and sit down with them to talk about their stories. I’d like to shirk the feeling that it’s not my place to do that. Is it my place to do that? As a passive onlooker, it seems foolish to attempt writing about people or place, but then the question that I'm interested in is, how to use writing to enter into the place, how to use writing as the vehicle to a more proactive approach at living in a place. Any suggestions? Meeting for beer on Thursday was a good start to something. Let’s do that again.
If it’s not off the subject, I just wanted to add something about babies. They are weird, like poems. How old do you have to be to not be a weird baby, how long does a poem have to be to make sense? In sheer length surely some Oppen clarity abounds. Why is one poem nonsense? And then you can write twenty of them and they make their own sense. I mean, everyday, so many things make sense to me. I get in my car, I drink a coke, I eat. My friend asked me one day, “does it make sense when you eat a good dinner?” I though this was a very poignant point. It does, the dinner is good. You ate it. That is really a sublime moment because you don’t have to think about it. You know it. I think this has a really interesting connection with your comments, Padcha. When you set poetry to music, nothing really matters, you could say anything and make it sound pretty with the background. But the stark presence on the page is overwhelming. Then it is poetry. But can’t you just change every word to an antonym, or another random thing and then it will still be the same? I am not trying to be stupid; these are questions I am really dealing with. For me, answering questions is antithetical to the questions we pose in poetry, and that is the paradox because I don’t know how I am suppose to ask. The idea of a completely dynamic poetry interests me, perhaps along the lines of Mr. Dennis, more organic, sending poems to individuals, personal connection, actually having your poem become a part of society. I guess that is sort of political.
Poetry as poison, poetry as crime circuit, poetry as espionage. Hi! It's quite lovely outside though ants are attacking my desk. So much to talk about here.
The workshop & the workshopped poem. I get this idea. I mean, I see how it's feasible that we end up with a "workshopped" aesthetic, considering how similar most workshops are that I've been in, aside from the people. I mean the basic format. But I wonder, does that really produce homogeneous work? I wonder how you guys would say your work has been changed by the workshops. There have definitely been changes made to my work, but more to the technical stuff. Like, hi, bad grammar issues. Or if I see that everyone is reading a line a certain way (I'm pretty democratic about it) which I don't intend, I'll probably change it. Because I won't be there to argue with the reader when it's in a Real Book. BUt other than that, I think the real value of the workshop is community building. Just being in a group of people that share your concerns and passions for the work. I am an extrovert & I get energized by talking to people. I think it actually helps my brain become sharper.
And then in our new Juliana format workshop, I really like the idea of the creative responses being a way to show how you read. In our craft class I was too scared most weeks to try a creative response. I thought it would have been easier to explain what I thought the work was doing to me. But it was never easy! I ended up being very vague & pointing out insignificant things. It was a poor translation of the actual experience of reading. I think the best way to examine how we read a poem is to write a poem back. When I did the cowboy narrativo version of Scott's poem, I think that was just one possible poem that I could have written to say the same thing, which is: how Scott's original made me feel. It's like, say, you make a big sculpture of a staircase & you paint it pink. And this makes me feel all these things. And I could try to explain it but it would be better to write a poem about/out of a mailbox which is missing numbers. Because in my mind the two things are related somehow. And though my response might not be logically, causally related, it might do just as good of a job of "explaining" how I read your sculpture. In the end this might be more valuable for you, and might be much more valuable then me saying, hmm I like the staircase but I'd like to see more steps and less bannister, just because.
Then there is English and then there is bleach. I just bought some bleach at Walgreen's. I have weird feelings about buying it at grocery stores because I don't like poison in the same bag as my food. I don't think I would ever put it next to my baby.
I have to think more about the English thing. I have very little authority on this because it's the only language I'm fluent in, and it's so widespread that I rarely have to think about it. I will say this, though. The few times that I've been in foreign countries where I didn't fluently speak the language, it was a very psychedelic experience. Like almost being able to understand what's going on, but questioning everything, constantly asking yourself "Did she really just say that? Am I crazy?" Kind of like poetry? Especially in France. Like, yes I understood that word and that word all those words, but not in that string, that combination! Does not compute. So I'll just sit here and pretend they're talking about pink staircases.
The workshop & the workshopped poem. I get this idea. I mean, I see how it's feasible that we end up with a "workshopped" aesthetic, considering how similar most workshops are that I've been in, aside from the people. I mean the basic format. But I wonder, does that really produce homogeneous work? I wonder how you guys would say your work has been changed by the workshops. There have definitely been changes made to my work, but more to the technical stuff. Like, hi, bad grammar issues. Or if I see that everyone is reading a line a certain way (I'm pretty democratic about it) which I don't intend, I'll probably change it. Because I won't be there to argue with the reader when it's in a Real Book. BUt other than that, I think the real value of the workshop is community building. Just being in a group of people that share your concerns and passions for the work. I am an extrovert & I get energized by talking to people. I think it actually helps my brain become sharper.
And then in our new Juliana format workshop, I really like the idea of the creative responses being a way to show how you read. In our craft class I was too scared most weeks to try a creative response. I thought it would have been easier to explain what I thought the work was doing to me. But it was never easy! I ended up being very vague & pointing out insignificant things. It was a poor translation of the actual experience of reading. I think the best way to examine how we read a poem is to write a poem back. When I did the cowboy narrativo version of Scott's poem, I think that was just one possible poem that I could have written to say the same thing, which is: how Scott's original made me feel. It's like, say, you make a big sculpture of a staircase & you paint it pink. And this makes me feel all these things. And I could try to explain it but it would be better to write a poem about/out of a mailbox which is missing numbers. Because in my mind the two things are related somehow. And though my response might not be logically, causally related, it might do just as good of a job of "explaining" how I read your sculpture. In the end this might be more valuable for you, and might be much more valuable then me saying, hmm I like the staircase but I'd like to see more steps and less bannister, just because.
Then there is English and then there is bleach. I just bought some bleach at Walgreen's. I have weird feelings about buying it at grocery stores because I don't like poison in the same bag as my food. I don't think I would ever put it next to my baby.
I have to think more about the English thing. I have very little authority on this because it's the only language I'm fluent in, and it's so widespread that I rarely have to think about it. I will say this, though. The few times that I've been in foreign countries where I didn't fluently speak the language, it was a very psychedelic experience. Like almost being able to understand what's going on, but questioning everything, constantly asking yourself "Did she really just say that? Am I crazy?" Kind of like poetry? Especially in France. Like, yes I understood that word and that word all those words, but not in that string, that combination! Does not compute. So I'll just sit here and pretend they're talking about pink staircases.
Anyway, I was in Albertson’s the other day because I needed to do some shopping, and there was a woman pushing a baby carriage with a sleeping baby inside of it. I think because she was pushing the carriage she was unable to get a shopping cart, so there was stuff on top of the carriage. However, inside, on top of the sleeping baby was a bottle of Clorox bleach. It was really weird, like the poetics of bleach. I am really into this poison thing right now, poetry as poison, like fluorescent lights, illuminating, but deadly on the inside, mercury. I wanted to find out how the bleach worked on the sleeping kid, find out if the kid really lives in bleach-world with bleach bars and Clorox cuddlies. Of course, I am a wimp and let all of these possibilities pass me by. And I was thinking if there are bleach-kids in the world, why not start cloning when we can, kids, thousands of them, and name them poems, a word a kid. Then send them to school, allow them to grow and learn, all the while knowing your poem is being said everyday all over the world. I would feel bad for the kid that gets “the” for a name, though. That would be tough. But what about “Dutiful?”
Thanks Juliana. I'll write a book of writing. one day i'll have it!
to continue...
as all of you probably know already, I always have an immense interest in the languag of english itself--lingusitically, socio-politically, poetically. Juliana has spotted this from my work which i think is extremely true. it is that I always interact with/think about english as a cross-culture. people all over the world (at least are expected to) speak english somewhat decently and, among them, not many even ask why that is the case. they believe it is just the way it is. which might be true.
don't get me wrong here. i love the english languauge to death. i just want to understand it even more.
what i have been thinking about (and still am) is the question of how to place english in the category of an international language, as free from socio-political baggage as possible. (this applies to poetry too--how do we read non-native enlish poetry, because it exists and might have resulted from "the world of english"!!) it irritates me constantly when i see ESL students from all over the world flocking into summer english programs in the states and elsewhere, learn almost nothing, and go home proud. (OK. I did this before, not sure how to hate exactly it but quite sure that there must be other ways.)
not to say the same scenario doesn't happen with other languages. but it so happans that english is so very dominant.
so here are some of my ideas (which i am not sure now these will actualize or not):
i want to think about how to let the learning of english for non-english speakers be more toward self-knowledge than resume builder. i want the understanding that english doesn't automatically entail superiority to get established somehow. right now, for many parts, english is just resume stuff and that's it. but there's so much more great things about english! one could argue, there's importance of communication here, i know, people need to be able to understand each other. english just happens to be the most common language. even if the result--people still need to learn english--stays the same, i think there's tremendous good to this piece of understanding if people get it.
now. for me. english is also almost the only way of expressing all this and, more importantly, my creative work. because, as compared to the other two languages i know, english has gone through most turbulant "creative" development (as way as other kind of development too--but let's stay focus here).
for example, i think the Thai language needs what has been modernism here. not to say there's anything negative about Thai. but, given the critical lack of interest and the absence of poets in the country--young people find poetry to be old-people's stuff, there are like two poetry books in bookstores--to me at least, something's got to change, no matter how minimally or slowly.
and, thinking this, i also want to try and keep what we call 'the system' within creative writing as out-of-the-picture as possible. get it before it gets here kinna measure. i guess i am trying to articulate all this as i think more about the future of me.
to continue...
as all of you probably know already, I always have an immense interest in the languag of english itself--lingusitically, socio-politically, poetically. Juliana has spotted this from my work which i think is extremely true. it is that I always interact with/think about english as a cross-culture. people all over the world (at least are expected to) speak english somewhat decently and, among them, not many even ask why that is the case. they believe it is just the way it is. which might be true.
don't get me wrong here. i love the english languauge to death. i just want to understand it even more.
what i have been thinking about (and still am) is the question of how to place english in the category of an international language, as free from socio-political baggage as possible. (this applies to poetry too--how do we read non-native enlish poetry, because it exists and might have resulted from "the world of english"!!) it irritates me constantly when i see ESL students from all over the world flocking into summer english programs in the states and elsewhere, learn almost nothing, and go home proud. (OK. I did this before, not sure how to hate exactly it but quite sure that there must be other ways.)
not to say the same scenario doesn't happen with other languages. but it so happans that english is so very dominant.
so here are some of my ideas (which i am not sure now these will actualize or not):
i want to think about how to let the learning of english for non-english speakers be more toward self-knowledge than resume builder. i want the understanding that english doesn't automatically entail superiority to get established somehow. right now, for many parts, english is just resume stuff and that's it. but there's so much more great things about english! one could argue, there's importance of communication here, i know, people need to be able to understand each other. english just happens to be the most common language. even if the result--people still need to learn english--stays the same, i think there's tremendous good to this piece of understanding if people get it.
now. for me. english is also almost the only way of expressing all this and, more importantly, my creative work. because, as compared to the other two languages i know, english has gone through most turbulant "creative" development (as way as other kind of development too--but let's stay focus here).
for example, i think the Thai language needs what has been modernism here. not to say there's anything negative about Thai. but, given the critical lack of interest and the absence of poets in the country--young people find poetry to be old-people's stuff, there are like two poetry books in bookstores--to me at least, something's got to change, no matter how minimally or slowly.
and, thinking this, i also want to try and keep what we call 'the system' within creative writing as out-of-the-picture as possible. get it before it gets here kinna measure. i guess i am trying to articulate all this as i think more about the future of me.
padcha, i like to think of workshops, or mfa programs in general, more as places for thinking and places for connecting with other thinkers. and less as little craft training machines.
thus constant emphasis on doing as much as you can to enter into community of writers...reviewing books, going to readings, participating in email discussion lists, talking to other poets at bar, etc. poetry (and publication) as a social life not as an endorsment system.
this weekend joel kuszai gave a talk on how we should see small press poetry world as international criminal syndicate. he was talking about national writers union, a leftist activist group of writers, from the 1920s-30s as the model. i like this model.
kristin also mentions lifestyle. this is big negotiation. lots of different answers which depend on what sort of money one has in one's pocket on most days. poets, w/o much money in their pocket by fate, work. this might be something that is best seen as a way of learning rather than a liability just because you have to do it either way, why not see it as something that is a benefit and maybe it will become one. i always think k-12 teacher is good job for poet starting out. you get holidays and summers off. i recommend special ed and developmental reading especially (lots of need in these areas; less students). mills has great certification program. but you can teach in private schools w/o certification. also international teaching racket here. check out the carney sandoe agency. they have website where you can register and if they take you, they will place you in a job. other jobs poets tend to do: proofreading, arts admin, bartending, librarian (big popular poet job at the moment).
i don't know where you, padcha, can find out more about the pedagogical issues other than that elephant book that you already read last semester. there are lots of exercise books for teaching creative writing. you could look at those. that sort of new age genre also, writing down the bone. etc. maybe that new daniel kane book would help: What Is Poetry: Conversations With the American Avant-Garde. perhaps you should write a book for us to read.
i was talking with jena, from whom i stole this workshop format, over the weekend. she was talking about how doing the processes, rather than the sort of generic do this and do that feedback, takes a certain higher level of generosity and that is the challenge of making it work finally. that to make it work you have to ask not what poem i would like better, but what am i doing as a reader. that the processes when they work are about interacting rather than rewriting.
on WALKS, i will probably go to barge walk on sunday unless i have to get bill from airport then. i would like to go to peralta house. and kristin, right?, is planning a black panther tour. the albany bowl is worth a walk.
thus constant emphasis on doing as much as you can to enter into community of writers...reviewing books, going to readings, participating in email discussion lists, talking to other poets at bar, etc. poetry (and publication) as a social life not as an endorsment system.
this weekend joel kuszai gave a talk on how we should see small press poetry world as international criminal syndicate. he was talking about national writers union, a leftist activist group of writers, from the 1920s-30s as the model. i like this model.
kristin also mentions lifestyle. this is big negotiation. lots of different answers which depend on what sort of money one has in one's pocket on most days. poets, w/o much money in their pocket by fate, work. this might be something that is best seen as a way of learning rather than a liability just because you have to do it either way, why not see it as something that is a benefit and maybe it will become one. i always think k-12 teacher is good job for poet starting out. you get holidays and summers off. i recommend special ed and developmental reading especially (lots of need in these areas; less students). mills has great certification program. but you can teach in private schools w/o certification. also international teaching racket here. check out the carney sandoe agency. they have website where you can register and if they take you, they will place you in a job. other jobs poets tend to do: proofreading, arts admin, bartending, librarian (big popular poet job at the moment).
i don't know where you, padcha, can find out more about the pedagogical issues other than that elephant book that you already read last semester. there are lots of exercise books for teaching creative writing. you could look at those. that sort of new age genre also, writing down the bone. etc. maybe that new daniel kane book would help: What Is Poetry: Conversations With the American Avant-Garde. perhaps you should write a book for us to read.
i was talking with jena, from whom i stole this workshop format, over the weekend. she was talking about how doing the processes, rather than the sort of generic do this and do that feedback, takes a certain higher level of generosity and that is the challenge of making it work finally. that to make it work you have to ask not what poem i would like better, but what am i doing as a reader. that the processes when they work are about interacting rather than rewriting.
on WALKS, i will probably go to barge walk on sunday unless i have to get bill from airport then. i would like to go to peralta house. and kristin, right?, is planning a black panther tour. the albany bowl is worth a walk.
Monday, February 09, 2004
OK, I'm going to rest on my laurels as a frequent poster for this week's "official" entry and keep this brief and scattered. First off, I went to Poets' Theater on Friday and I am certain that Deborah Richards' upcoming play (featuring two Grace Joneses and one Halle Berry, if I understood coreectly) is going to be amazing. The layering of language (two relatively unrehearsed actresses speaking -- quite effectively -- at once), the calculated movements, the probing forcefulness of her script are all leading to something very culturally important -- race, gender, privilege, media all converge here, but not in any hackneyed sort of way. I'm excited to read her "Last One Out." Similar layering seems to be going on in it, as well as searing media/cultural critique (I hear the last section on Tarzan is phenomenal), but I'll have to wait to see.
Which leads me to another thought . . . a while back I mentioned Leslie Scalapino's and Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge's living, almost constantly it seems, in a certain poetic space. I said I work much differently and didn't see that as better/worse, and I still don't, but god there are times when having to switch out of that poetic space is so damn jarring. I spent all weekend working at Mills and then on reference book stuff and I can just feel the creative energy and poetic tendencies just seeping out of me. Any energy that might be directed toward cultural/political change is sapped at times like this too. I know this fragmented way of being, this inattentiveness (or multi-attentiveness), this relentless state of, I don't know, massive ickiness, is not foreign to anyone on this blog. I mean, my god, I don't even have kids (nor would I have the time or money to support them if I were to choose to have them) and I'm complaining. So, what do we do (especially once we're thrown back out into the "real world")? Where is the balance? How do we, and our art, survive? I'm really not trying to whine here, it's just the question that's foremost in my mind right now, and I'm wondering if others have ideas on how we make this work, especially once we don't have the luxury of living off our student loans but instead have to work like dogs to pay them back.
On a lighter note, Dan played a great John Ashberry Friday night -- he's definitely got the look!
Which leads me to another thought . . . a while back I mentioned Leslie Scalapino's and Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge's living, almost constantly it seems, in a certain poetic space. I said I work much differently and didn't see that as better/worse, and I still don't, but god there are times when having to switch out of that poetic space is so damn jarring. I spent all weekend working at Mills and then on reference book stuff and I can just feel the creative energy and poetic tendencies just seeping out of me. Any energy that might be directed toward cultural/political change is sapped at times like this too. I know this fragmented way of being, this inattentiveness (or multi-attentiveness), this relentless state of, I don't know, massive ickiness, is not foreign to anyone on this blog. I mean, my god, I don't even have kids (nor would I have the time or money to support them if I were to choose to have them) and I'm complaining. So, what do we do (especially once we're thrown back out into the "real world")? Where is the balance? How do we, and our art, survive? I'm really not trying to whine here, it's just the question that's foremost in my mind right now, and I'm wondering if others have ideas on how we make this work, especially once we don't have the luxury of living off our student loans but instead have to work like dogs to pay them back.
On a lighter note, Dan played a great John Ashberry Friday night -- he's definitely got the look!
thank you to dennis for the poem and the author's "name." it's great.
I finally have The Poethical Wager, which I had ordered since before Christmas at UC press on Bancroft. Extremely satisfied to finally have it!
This week, a non-poet friend of mine asked me about what people do in poetry workshop, and how do people teach poetry workshop. And how we get grades. My answer, she thought, wasn't at all adequate.
This becomes somewhat a pedagogical question to me. Where can we find out more about it? (Juliana?) The more I think of it, the more abstract this gets in my head. So, if you guys can help de-abstract it, please do.
I think workshop is the place where we are granted attention of a group of engaged audience (and give it too). Essentially, that should be all there is to it. But then workshop can really shape your work if you kinna let that happen. (That has happened to me before!) So we could end up with all the generic "workshop poems" which, sadly, sometimes get praised institutionally. On the other hand, if you don't let workshop have any effect on you at all, why going to workshop? There has to be a balance. Nonetheless, given the fact that merit of work is gained partly through publication and prizes, and in most cases, students get grade from workshop, the balance can be easily tilted.
Just for fun, (and b/c I dream to teach in the future...) let's try describing YOUR perfect workshop. Who's in??
I finally have The Poethical Wager, which I had ordered since before Christmas at UC press on Bancroft. Extremely satisfied to finally have it!
This week, a non-poet friend of mine asked me about what people do in poetry workshop, and how do people teach poetry workshop. And how we get grades. My answer, she thought, wasn't at all adequate.
This becomes somewhat a pedagogical question to me. Where can we find out more about it? (Juliana?) The more I think of it, the more abstract this gets in my head. So, if you guys can help de-abstract it, please do.
I think workshop is the place where we are granted attention of a group of engaged audience (and give it too). Essentially, that should be all there is to it. But then workshop can really shape your work if you kinna let that happen. (That has happened to me before!) So we could end up with all the generic "workshop poems" which, sadly, sometimes get praised institutionally. On the other hand, if you don't let workshop have any effect on you at all, why going to workshop? There has to be a balance. Nonetheless, given the fact that merit of work is gained partly through publication and prizes, and in most cases, students get grade from workshop, the balance can be easily tilted.
Just for fun, (and b/c I dream to teach in the future...) let's try describing YOUR perfect workshop. Who's in??
a reminder for those interested in working on a publication project in response to some kind of 'walk', or 'tour' or the likes within/around our community. Plan to meet at 2:10 on Wed in the workshop classroom. William says there is several thousand dollars of working money; this could be ours for the using. Did anyone have any interest in the BARGE project/walk sent out last week?
another place I am interested in is the park alongside the waterfront (Albany Bowl?, I think)...where many renegade artists have put up their work.
also there are tours of The Antonio Peralta House (in Fruitvale) the first Saturday of every month....it is the site of the first non-indigenous settlement in the East Bay and the birthplace of Oakland, which may be 'food for thought'.
Romney
another place I am interested in is the park alongside the waterfront (Albany Bowl?, I think)...where many renegade artists have put up their work.
also there are tours of The Antonio Peralta House (in Fruitvale) the first Saturday of every month....it is the site of the first non-indigenous settlement in the East Bay and the birthplace of Oakland, which may be 'food for thought'.
Romney
uh, i was thinkinguiltily(greedily?) about building my poems in and on the carcasses of all yer workshopoetry, esp. those w/theses looming. wanting to do a better job of workshopping all your work, it would help me to have y'all specify yer needs. i'm sorry scott and romney if i didn't do more of what you might've needed close to yer hour of... as for me, i foresee wanting ideas to further the levels on the page and off, my work might work. and if my dead/lame poem breathes its last into your new one, so be it (but then i have the time to allow for tossing things and creative forays). it occurs to me that "workshop" means to me building things in and not just for (or is that how the term is used outside the walls of the academy?) And w/my penchant for this type of collaboration (ever since kathleen fraser's "unwriting writing" class at ccac where we wrote to art), the poetential of this workshop format feels of a high yield. already, jessea's comment about writing to abstract writing or other than her own in event of "writer's block" is very similar to what i believe about art particularly abstract style and sounds sorta like a (Jessea correct me if i'm wrong) creative breakthrough or just a pushing passed what she normally does, which in turn sounds like what (sorry if i'm wrong agin) kristin's interested in. i like the idea of celebrating what we think works (imitation blog blog blog flattery) or building on what doesn't seem to, could be a very writerly way to reveal where we'd like to see the work go, through example, which is very personal/politcal (if ya ask mees) indeed--bein' the change we want to see in the world; scuse me: writing the change we want to see in someone's writing. at any rate of cliche, if we approach workshop like many of us are trying to approach poetry by trying something new, innovating, experimentating, we might find ways of working/writing we hadn't realized or simply forgotten. naive old me could just be talkin' out my ars poeticabout moi. however, this might mean the "workshoparadigm" shifting our work from the end all be all to just the beginning, the impetus for the week we're werkt n beyond....
or not. does this preclude people getting the feedback they needeserve on their work? it doesn't have to. am i too gung hope? rationalizing what i want to do? yeah, but it workt for me...and look how insane his work/play has gooten. still, less painful; more potential, go.
having written that, there isn't much i'm changing in padcha's k poem except for the visual shape i originally wanted to change one of her poems into a wideass prose block but the "has been"'s caught my eye looking like they wanted to see how far they could move out of the center w/o losing their connection to the whole.
here's hopin' i didn't get too preachy; i'm just excitable. d
or not. does this preclude people getting the feedback they needeserve on their work? it doesn't have to. am i too gung hope? rationalizing what i want to do? yeah, but it workt for me...and look how insane his work/play has gooten. still, less painful; more potential, go.
having written that, there isn't much i'm changing in padcha's k poem except for the visual shape i originally wanted to change one of her poems into a wideass prose block but the "has been"'s caught my eye looking like they wanted to see how far they could move out of the center w/o losing their connection to the whole.
here's hopin' i didn't get too preachy; i'm just excitable. d
for those working on publication project, check out
bookmobile.com
i heard a lot about print on demand at conference this weekend. it looks decent.
NOW ON RESERVE...
Commitment Adorno, Theodor W. ELECTRONIC RESOURCES
Creative reading techniques Padgett, Ron ELECTRONIC RESOURCES
How are verses made Mayakovsky, Vladimir ELECTRONIC RESOURCES
The midnight / Susan Howe. 811.54 H858m 2003
Nest / Mei-mei Berssenbrugge. 811.54 B53n 2003
Oulipo : a primer of potential literature / translated and ecited by Warren F. Motte, Jr. 840.6044 O934 1998
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / 808.81 P744 v.1
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / 808.81 P744 v.2
The Princeton handbook of poetic terms / Alex Preminger, editor ; 808.1 P957 1986
The Teachers & writers handbook of poetic forms / edited by Ron Padgett. 808.1 T253 1987
to access electronic resources...
go to minerva.mills.edu
search reserves by faculty
enter spahr
choose english 270
password is eng270s04
bookmobile.com
i heard a lot about print on demand at conference this weekend. it looks decent.
NOW ON RESERVE...
Commitment Adorno, Theodor W. ELECTRONIC RESOURCES
Creative reading techniques Padgett, Ron ELECTRONIC RESOURCES
How are verses made Mayakovsky, Vladimir ELECTRONIC RESOURCES
The midnight / Susan Howe. 811.54 H858m 2003
Nest / Mei-mei Berssenbrugge. 811.54 B53n 2003
Oulipo : a primer of potential literature / translated and ecited by Warren F. Motte, Jr. 840.6044 O934 1998
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / 808.81 P744 v.1
Poems for the millennium : the University of California book of modern & postmodern poetry / 808.81 P744 v.2
The Princeton handbook of poetic terms / Alex Preminger, editor ; 808.1 P957 1986
The Teachers & writers handbook of poetic forms / edited by Ron Padgett. 808.1 T253 1987
to access electronic resources...
go to minerva.mills.edu
search reserves by faculty
enter spahr
choose english 270
password is eng270s04
Thursday, February 05, 2004
ELIZABETH TREADWELL
reading/workshop
Wednesday, February 11
7 pm
Mills Hall 322
free and open to the public
Elizabeth Treadwell currently lives in Oakland, California, where she was born in 1967. She is of Cherokee and Irish persuasion on her mother’s side. She is the author of a collection of prose poems, Populace (Avec, 1999), and a novel, Eleanor Ramsey: the Queen of Cups (SFSU, 1997); as well as several chapbooks including two short volumes of her Eve Doe project. Her long poem, LILYFOIL (or Boy & Girl Tramps of America), is available free as an ebook at durationpress.com. A new collection of her poetry, Chantry, will be published by Chax Press. She is currently the director of Small Press Traffic. In 2002 she organized Indigenous Writing Now, a conference at SPT celebrating and discussing current practices in Native American literature(s), and patterns in writing by Native Americans, with Native American poets, writers and scholars representing nine Native nations: Laguna Pueblo, Navajo, Cherokee, Nez Perce, Suquamish, Mohawk, Dakota, Arapaho, and Chippewa.
forthcoming talks/readings/discussions/workshops by oakland associated writers...
18-Feb catalina cariaga
25-Feb truong tran
24-Mar chris chen
31-Mar tisa bryant
7-Apr eileen tabios and michelle batista
14-Apr rodrigo toscano
21-Apr renee gladman
Series sponsored in part with funds from the Irvine Foundation at Mills College and from 'A 'A Arts with grants it has received from the National Endowment for the Arts and Poets & Writers, Inc, through a grant it has received from the James Irvine Foundation.
reading/workshop
Wednesday, February 11
7 pm
Mills Hall 322
free and open to the public
Elizabeth Treadwell currently lives in Oakland, California, where she was born in 1967. She is of Cherokee and Irish persuasion on her mother’s side. She is the author of a collection of prose poems, Populace (Avec, 1999), and a novel, Eleanor Ramsey: the Queen of Cups (SFSU, 1997); as well as several chapbooks including two short volumes of her Eve Doe project. Her long poem, LILYFOIL (or Boy & Girl Tramps of America), is available free as an ebook at durationpress.com. A new collection of her poetry, Chantry, will be published by Chax Press. She is currently the director of Small Press Traffic. In 2002 she organized Indigenous Writing Now, a conference at SPT celebrating and discussing current practices in Native American literature(s), and patterns in writing by Native Americans, with Native American poets, writers and scholars representing nine Native nations: Laguna Pueblo, Navajo, Cherokee, Nez Perce, Suquamish, Mohawk, Dakota, Arapaho, and Chippewa.
forthcoming talks/readings/discussions/workshops by oakland associated writers...
18-Feb catalina cariaga
25-Feb truong tran
24-Mar chris chen
31-Mar tisa bryant
7-Apr eileen tabios and michelle batista
14-Apr rodrigo toscano
21-Apr renee gladman
Series sponsored in part with funds from the Irvine Foundation at Mills College and from 'A 'A Arts with grants it has received from the National Endowment for the Arts and Poets & Writers, Inc, through a grant it has received from the James Irvine Foundation.
my talk for ithaca conference will be my blog post for this week (this is an updated version of a talk on my website from another editing conference from last year so i really am cheating but it will take me three flights to get to ithaca and three flights back so that is my excuse)...
PART ONE
They went to graduate school in a cold place. There was lots of conversation in this cold place. Lots of attention to the techniques of radical modernism and the legacies of radical modernism. People met in various bars late at night, after they had done some reading and some writing alone in their large yet cold rented apartments, and talked about things. They braved the cold and the ice to talk about things. The things they talked about were things like radical modernism. And legacies. And male poets. They talked not reflectively about male poets as MALE poets, but just compulsively about male poets as if they were not even noticing that they just talked about male poets. They couldn't help themselves. There was a heroic tendency in the cold place that felt as if it was a warm breeze. A heroism that came from dealing with the cold and snow more than most other places in the nation. A heroism that came from a city dealing with a steel industry now gone and the reminder of a once thriving machismo which was now at risk. And a heroism that came from a city dealing with repeated and absurd losses in various superbowls. A heroism of a city of numerous bars.
And there was a heroism of poetic sensibilty.
The poetic sensibility was a heritage. It took the form of bold declarations. And it also took the form of many magazines and an attention to the form of bold declaration that a magazine could make. And it took the form of one up manship in terms of who is most radical. At night at the bar, perhaps one of three bars where people tended to gather, often certain poets were said to not be radical enough because they used fewer techniques of modernist fragmentation than certain other poets. These not radical enough poets were usually women poets who were seen to not be radical enough because they had other concerns, those concerns of collective identity say, the very thing that heroism hates. Or if the women poets were all about their own identity, which was not uncommon, because women too have a tendency to talk excessively about themselves, then that was a problem also. The heroism liked only heroic identity. Heroism felt that the woman poets couldn't help it; it wasn't their fault. They had to deal with the bad society. But it was sad about their work.
They had gone to the cold place because of the heritage. They loved the heritage, its stutters and its declarations and its own awareness of its own importance even if other parts of society seemed completely unaware of the heritage's existence. They loved it. They admitted it. But once they got there, they didn't know what to do with the heritage. It was so big and so strong. It was so much. It defined them. It shaped them. It made them read certain things with great attention and not read certain others things. It asked them to type up memos that it wrote for them. It dismissed their work as being too much about women, or gender specific as it might be said. So they sat around and complained about the heritage, even as they loved it and wrote out of it. This got boring quickly. And so to keep the complaint from being the culmination, they issued a challenge to themselves to edit their own magazine rather than complain. Their expectations were low. They thought they might do a few issues and maybe they themselves would learn to see a new, wider heritage. They might be able to use the magazine to talk to some women that they were having trouble talking with, women from other parts of the country who didn't seem all that interested in talking with them when they tried to talk with them when they came to town and went to one of the bars for the discussion about modernist fragmentation. And also they might just have something to do late at night other than go to the bar and hear some more about who was or was not radical enough.
Because there were so many magazines already going, they had to think of a way to fit their magazine in. They knew they wanted their magazine to be a part of the heritage. This they felt was a right they had and that they needed to assert. And yet they knew that they wanted their magazine to be suggestive of a wider heritage. They wanted their magazine to be radical enough but also have room for things that were not radical enough also or radical enough in a different way. Really, what they wanted was for that question of radical enough to go away and to talk some about things like culture and literature's role in it and literature from other countries or literatures written in other Englishes and to have that conversation be in part about form but have it have room for forms that were not in the modernist tradition as much as for forms that were in the modernist tradition because both sorts of writing had a lot to contribute to literature's shaping of and commentary on culture and literature's potential to be part of the discussion about how best to resist the large evil heritages that mattered in a way that poetic heritages did not, the large evil heritages of militarism, imperialism, and globalization. They didn't want to argue about radical enough or make a canon. They just wanted to think with others. They wanted editing to clear a space in their body for them to think.
At that moment when they challenged themselves they were just thinking of themselves. Just of how to hang onto something. Or just of how to find something to hang onto. They were just thinking of themselves. When they thought of editing they thought of how a pebble drops into a pool of water and the water ripples on the surface but just below the surface the pebble drifts down and as the pebble drifts down it drifts past the beings that live in the water, the tadpoles, the fish, the amoebas, the plants of various sorts and it floats gently down through the thickness of the water, comes to rest on the bottom as the surface ripples become slower and quieter at the same moment. When they thought of editing they thought of a knot finally coming untied after appearing to be impossibly tangled. Or an impossible tangling of a piece of string that is neatly wound around a spool. When they thought of editing they thought of a feeling that there is no end as they were coming to the end of the road, pulling up right in front of the concrete bunker that symbolizes the end of the road, getting out, climbing over the bunker, walking out into the grass of the field, then walking slowly and steadily towards their own writing, all the while holding the eyes wide, full of peripheral vision, holding their eyes on the horizon, noticing the effort that it takes to be aware of the changes that occur as the eyes are held wide and on one point for a long time. There are just a few changes at first they realized when they began editing, like the slight blurring of vision, the heavy tiredness of eyes, the way the horizon seems to move about or changes shape or color but then they would think of springing off the diving board and moving into the part of the dive that feels aerodynamic and smooth, feels just right to the body, the feeling of moving through the air, and then the feeling of entering into the water, the cool water of other's ideas, as if in slow motion as if floating but really with just a certain quick sensation of smoothness. They thought of the inner smoothness that moves plovers, monarchs, whales, garden snakes, ants, slugs, herds of walking animals from one place to another when they thought of editing. The feeling that sets them in motion, a feeling that might not even be a conscious awareness that is moving them toward another place, a place of water perhaps or a place of dryness or a place of coolness or of warmness and the feeling of arriving together and with this motion the comfort that this space of almost unconscious moving must have, an effortless realization that comes with each moment of change. Or when they thought of editing they thought of a noticing their clenched fist and then unclenching this fist and the sensation of the unclenched fist and how this sensation travels up the hand and into the chest and into breath. All of this was the all right of editing. An all right of unclenching. An all right of sitting in a room that is not a bar but is a public place and then breathing in and out audibly in this place with others breathing in and out audibly at the same moment. The breathing in was a taking in of the work of others and giving it space in the lightness inside the body, letting others, the air that just was audibly expelled by others inside the body, into the cells, and letting it do all the transmutations that are essential for humans and then breathing out, breathing out the air of others and their own addition of germs and moisture to the air of others.
PART TWO
All this, all this worked for them. They let the writing of others grow in them and the writing of others changed them and they were grateful to this.
Years went by. One year and another year. They moved around a lot. They moved from city to city but none of this is important because as they moved they brought their editing with them. At one point they woke up and found themselves in the middle of the Pacific ocean. They had an email discussion list that they were on. The email discussion list had evolved from a cc list to a small discussion list. It was a private list and this troubled some of them but relieved others. Sometimes there were fights on the list. Sometimes nothing was said on the list. But at a certain point a group from the list decided to start a press together. They decided to start a press because they felt that presses were disappearing. This had something to do with the constant erosion of government funds that even while they tended to be the sort of people who didn’t get much in government funds they had been, although they didn’t really realize it until now, beneficiaries of a certain amount of trickle down. And they felt there was no place for people like them, people of a certain age, to publish their books. There was no one for them so they decided to be for themselves.
They had a long email discussion about how to start the press. And what they decided finally was that anyone from the discussion list could join the press. And nineteen people did. And all nineteen agreed to donate 1% of their income every year for at least three years. And during those three years, everyone would get a budget to edit one book. The budget was small, but it was possible to publish a book on it if one used a galley printer. The press seemed wonderful and utopian to them. Everyone would edit and see through production a book of their own choice. No one could say that the press couldn’t publish a book. There would be no group editorial decisions. No complaints about who published what. This would let them be a press of acceptance rather than one of narrow editorial vision.
It was wonderful and utopian. It was wonderful and utopian and full of problems. It still is wonderful because it has published at least fifteen books. Books that might not otherwise get published. It has done books that have dropped into their mind as a pebble might drop into a pool of water and it has done books that have made them think of knots coming untied and books that have felt so expansive that they feel as if they had come to the end of the road and then gone beyond it. And the press has done books that read like diving into a pool just right and books that move them from one place to another unconsciously and books that have clenched and unclenched their fists.
PART THREE
[Part three has not been authorized by the mothership and has thus not been released.]
PART ONE
They went to graduate school in a cold place. There was lots of conversation in this cold place. Lots of attention to the techniques of radical modernism and the legacies of radical modernism. People met in various bars late at night, after they had done some reading and some writing alone in their large yet cold rented apartments, and talked about things. They braved the cold and the ice to talk about things. The things they talked about were things like radical modernism. And legacies. And male poets. They talked not reflectively about male poets as MALE poets, but just compulsively about male poets as if they were not even noticing that they just talked about male poets. They couldn't help themselves. There was a heroic tendency in the cold place that felt as if it was a warm breeze. A heroism that came from dealing with the cold and snow more than most other places in the nation. A heroism that came from a city dealing with a steel industry now gone and the reminder of a once thriving machismo which was now at risk. And a heroism that came from a city dealing with repeated and absurd losses in various superbowls. A heroism of a city of numerous bars.
And there was a heroism of poetic sensibilty.
The poetic sensibility was a heritage. It took the form of bold declarations. And it also took the form of many magazines and an attention to the form of bold declaration that a magazine could make. And it took the form of one up manship in terms of who is most radical. At night at the bar, perhaps one of three bars where people tended to gather, often certain poets were said to not be radical enough because they used fewer techniques of modernist fragmentation than certain other poets. These not radical enough poets were usually women poets who were seen to not be radical enough because they had other concerns, those concerns of collective identity say, the very thing that heroism hates. Or if the women poets were all about their own identity, which was not uncommon, because women too have a tendency to talk excessively about themselves, then that was a problem also. The heroism liked only heroic identity. Heroism felt that the woman poets couldn't help it; it wasn't their fault. They had to deal with the bad society. But it was sad about their work.
They had gone to the cold place because of the heritage. They loved the heritage, its stutters and its declarations and its own awareness of its own importance even if other parts of society seemed completely unaware of the heritage's existence. They loved it. They admitted it. But once they got there, they didn't know what to do with the heritage. It was so big and so strong. It was so much. It defined them. It shaped them. It made them read certain things with great attention and not read certain others things. It asked them to type up memos that it wrote for them. It dismissed their work as being too much about women, or gender specific as it might be said. So they sat around and complained about the heritage, even as they loved it and wrote out of it. This got boring quickly. And so to keep the complaint from being the culmination, they issued a challenge to themselves to edit their own magazine rather than complain. Their expectations were low. They thought they might do a few issues and maybe they themselves would learn to see a new, wider heritage. They might be able to use the magazine to talk to some women that they were having trouble talking with, women from other parts of the country who didn't seem all that interested in talking with them when they tried to talk with them when they came to town and went to one of the bars for the discussion about modernist fragmentation. And also they might just have something to do late at night other than go to the bar and hear some more about who was or was not radical enough.
Because there were so many magazines already going, they had to think of a way to fit their magazine in. They knew they wanted their magazine to be a part of the heritage. This they felt was a right they had and that they needed to assert. And yet they knew that they wanted their magazine to be suggestive of a wider heritage. They wanted their magazine to be radical enough but also have room for things that were not radical enough also or radical enough in a different way. Really, what they wanted was for that question of radical enough to go away and to talk some about things like culture and literature's role in it and literature from other countries or literatures written in other Englishes and to have that conversation be in part about form but have it have room for forms that were not in the modernist tradition as much as for forms that were in the modernist tradition because both sorts of writing had a lot to contribute to literature's shaping of and commentary on culture and literature's potential to be part of the discussion about how best to resist the large evil heritages that mattered in a way that poetic heritages did not, the large evil heritages of militarism, imperialism, and globalization. They didn't want to argue about radical enough or make a canon. They just wanted to think with others. They wanted editing to clear a space in their body for them to think.
At that moment when they challenged themselves they were just thinking of themselves. Just of how to hang onto something. Or just of how to find something to hang onto. They were just thinking of themselves. When they thought of editing they thought of how a pebble drops into a pool of water and the water ripples on the surface but just below the surface the pebble drifts down and as the pebble drifts down it drifts past the beings that live in the water, the tadpoles, the fish, the amoebas, the plants of various sorts and it floats gently down through the thickness of the water, comes to rest on the bottom as the surface ripples become slower and quieter at the same moment. When they thought of editing they thought of a knot finally coming untied after appearing to be impossibly tangled. Or an impossible tangling of a piece of string that is neatly wound around a spool. When they thought of editing they thought of a feeling that there is no end as they were coming to the end of the road, pulling up right in front of the concrete bunker that symbolizes the end of the road, getting out, climbing over the bunker, walking out into the grass of the field, then walking slowly and steadily towards their own writing, all the while holding the eyes wide, full of peripheral vision, holding their eyes on the horizon, noticing the effort that it takes to be aware of the changes that occur as the eyes are held wide and on one point for a long time. There are just a few changes at first they realized when they began editing, like the slight blurring of vision, the heavy tiredness of eyes, the way the horizon seems to move about or changes shape or color but then they would think of springing off the diving board and moving into the part of the dive that feels aerodynamic and smooth, feels just right to the body, the feeling of moving through the air, and then the feeling of entering into the water, the cool water of other's ideas, as if in slow motion as if floating but really with just a certain quick sensation of smoothness. They thought of the inner smoothness that moves plovers, monarchs, whales, garden snakes, ants, slugs, herds of walking animals from one place to another when they thought of editing. The feeling that sets them in motion, a feeling that might not even be a conscious awareness that is moving them toward another place, a place of water perhaps or a place of dryness or a place of coolness or of warmness and the feeling of arriving together and with this motion the comfort that this space of almost unconscious moving must have, an effortless realization that comes with each moment of change. Or when they thought of editing they thought of a noticing their clenched fist and then unclenching this fist and the sensation of the unclenched fist and how this sensation travels up the hand and into the chest and into breath. All of this was the all right of editing. An all right of unclenching. An all right of sitting in a room that is not a bar but is a public place and then breathing in and out audibly in this place with others breathing in and out audibly at the same moment. The breathing in was a taking in of the work of others and giving it space in the lightness inside the body, letting others, the air that just was audibly expelled by others inside the body, into the cells, and letting it do all the transmutations that are essential for humans and then breathing out, breathing out the air of others and their own addition of germs and moisture to the air of others.
PART TWO
All this, all this worked for them. They let the writing of others grow in them and the writing of others changed them and they were grateful to this.
Years went by. One year and another year. They moved around a lot. They moved from city to city but none of this is important because as they moved they brought their editing with them. At one point they woke up and found themselves in the middle of the Pacific ocean. They had an email discussion list that they were on. The email discussion list had evolved from a cc list to a small discussion list. It was a private list and this troubled some of them but relieved others. Sometimes there were fights on the list. Sometimes nothing was said on the list. But at a certain point a group from the list decided to start a press together. They decided to start a press because they felt that presses were disappearing. This had something to do with the constant erosion of government funds that even while they tended to be the sort of people who didn’t get much in government funds they had been, although they didn’t really realize it until now, beneficiaries of a certain amount of trickle down. And they felt there was no place for people like them, people of a certain age, to publish their books. There was no one for them so they decided to be for themselves.
They had a long email discussion about how to start the press. And what they decided finally was that anyone from the discussion list could join the press. And nineteen people did. And all nineteen agreed to donate 1% of their income every year for at least three years. And during those three years, everyone would get a budget to edit one book. The budget was small, but it was possible to publish a book on it if one used a galley printer. The press seemed wonderful and utopian to them. Everyone would edit and see through production a book of their own choice. No one could say that the press couldn’t publish a book. There would be no group editorial decisions. No complaints about who published what. This would let them be a press of acceptance rather than one of narrow editorial vision.
It was wonderful and utopian. It was wonderful and utopian and full of problems. It still is wonderful because it has published at least fifteen books. Books that might not otherwise get published. It has done books that have dropped into their mind as a pebble might drop into a pool of water and it has done books that have made them think of knots coming untied and books that have felt so expansive that they feel as if they had come to the end of the road and then gone beyond it. And the press has done books that read like diving into a pool just right and books that move them from one place to another unconsciously and books that have clenched and unclenched their fists.
PART THREE
[Part three has not been authorized by the mothership and has thus not been released.]
if the horse isn't dead yet...
found this quote from agamben at back of the New Review (a new journal out from Otis College of Art and Design).
The original cohesion of poetry and politics in our culture was sanctioned from the very start by the fact that Aristotle's treatment of music is contained in the Politics and that Plato's themes of poetry and art are to be found in the Republic; it is therefore a matter beyond dispute. The question is not so much whether poetry has any bearing on politics, but whether politics remains equal to its original cohesion with poetry.
--Agamben "Project for a Review"
and then these two quotes on form from Susan Schultz's No Guns, No Durian...
One category I've developed is the prose poem as essay (comes after description, story, parody, memoir and the rest). You might consider your poem a place in which to develop ideas, rather like a stadium in which you're seeking out periodic curves and finding them beneath sine wave hills.
and
That we write collages may dispirit us, letting in the very material we want expurgated, or at least investigated.
found this quote from agamben at back of the New Review (a new journal out from Otis College of Art and Design).
The original cohesion of poetry and politics in our culture was sanctioned from the very start by the fact that Aristotle's treatment of music is contained in the Politics and that Plato's themes of poetry and art are to be found in the Republic; it is therefore a matter beyond dispute. The question is not so much whether poetry has any bearing on politics, but whether politics remains equal to its original cohesion with poetry.
--Agamben "Project for a Review"
and then these two quotes on form from Susan Schultz's No Guns, No Durian...
One category I've developed is the prose poem as essay (comes after description, story, parody, memoir and the rest). You might consider your poem a place in which to develop ideas, rather like a stadium in which you're seeking out periodic curves and finding them beneath sine wave hills.
and
That we write collages may dispirit us, letting in the very material we want expurgated, or at least investigated.
Wednesday, February 04, 2004
Thanks Juliana for those 'after thoughts' so to speak....and yes, I think we all have to come to terms with our own work and therefore take what we want from others and leave the rest behind, or something like that . For me, time is a critical issue though I have no plans to extend my thesis in absentia. And somewhat in the vain of what you said about the work being a draft, Elizabeth Robinson said to me recently that really this was just the beginning...and that is a nice way to look at this whole thesis/graduation thing. I'm no spring chicken like some others, but clearly ones writing life is always in process perhaps, always in revision as Yedda spoke about tonight. And wasn't it Picasso who said something about a work of art never being finished? God forbid!
Unlike Scott, I didn't come into school with an agenda (or particular plan, except perhaps writing through some of my own history), and though I was writing my way into graduate school, my work has shifted and changed so much...it seems to be continuously evolving.
And it is only in the last few months that I actually feel like I can see my work more clearly, and this is exciting and yet also leaves me with the predicament of working through and re-writing/or writing back into so much of it in just a few months. I appreciate so much the various perspectives you have brought to the workshops and classes and it has given me not only the challenge, but the impetous to write into places that I might not have ventured. I was fine with the comments on my work today, though admittantly I was often just more interested in seeing how a Romney piece became a Scott piece, for example, than say how my work should do this/or extend here or there. There were some helpful comments on my work, afterall, and I feel like I do know what I want to do, and therefore see the task in front of me. Now its time to get to work.
Unlike Scott, I didn't come into school with an agenda (or particular plan, except perhaps writing through some of my own history), and though I was writing my way into graduate school, my work has shifted and changed so much...it seems to be continuously evolving.
And it is only in the last few months that I actually feel like I can see my work more clearly, and this is exciting and yet also leaves me with the predicament of working through and re-writing/or writing back into so much of it in just a few months. I appreciate so much the various perspectives you have brought to the workshops and classes and it has given me not only the challenge, but the impetous to write into places that I might not have ventured. I was fine with the comments on my work today, though admittantly I was often just more interested in seeing how a Romney piece became a Scott piece, for example, than say how my work should do this/or extend here or there. There were some helpful comments on my work, afterall, and I feel like I do know what I want to do, and therefore see the task in front of me. Now its time to get to work.
post workshop thoughts...
i was left with romney's comment about feeling as if she needed another six months. and then kristen joking about the extention. and then jessea saying that there will be too much rewriting to do as a result of workshop method. and then scott saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. (which is true.)
and then i thought about how when i was working on my dissertation i would take it to the guy who wrote a book on dickinson and he would say add more dickinson. and i would take it to the woman who wrote on whitman and she would say you need to add whitman. etc. a lot of comments end up being well here is what i would do. there is something in this story here about staying true to what one wants to do or needs to do. but even if one does this, one can take this information and just ignore it or one can think about why one doesn't want to do this. and the second is probably more useful.
and we saw that sort of here is what i would do response in workshop several times. like dennis's claim that he was writing between romney's poem to write a poem that he would write. and i was thinking that this is one way that one might be a reader of someone's work (and not, as a cynic might say, just dennis making romney's work into his own).
and we might as a class want to think not only about how to celebrate what we like in the work but also how to discuss in the procedures how we read the work.
and also to think about what sort of procedures the work takes us to.
but also, i think there is something to be learned from hearing one's poem rewritten in the opposite of how one writes. one can learn how people read. and one can learn the stereotype of one's work. but one is also forced to think, no that is not for me, and then after that why? which might be the big question. why one does what one does. or why one hates the excessive version of the poem someone else has rewritten. or etc.
anyway, good work today. but also think it is good idea to keep thinking about what the author might need as much as we can.
but back to six months... a thesis is a draft. a somewhat finished draft but probably not the last draft. so it makes sense to work on it and get it as good as possible (you just might have more time to devote to it now than you will in the future) but it also might make sense to think about how to rewrite it after it is turned in also.
i was left with romney's comment about feeling as if she needed another six months. and then kristen joking about the extention. and then jessea saying that there will be too much rewriting to do as a result of workshop method. and then scott saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. (which is true.)
and then i thought about how when i was working on my dissertation i would take it to the guy who wrote a book on dickinson and he would say add more dickinson. and i would take it to the woman who wrote on whitman and she would say you need to add whitman. etc. a lot of comments end up being well here is what i would do. there is something in this story here about staying true to what one wants to do or needs to do. but even if one does this, one can take this information and just ignore it or one can think about why one doesn't want to do this. and the second is probably more useful.
and we saw that sort of here is what i would do response in workshop several times. like dennis's claim that he was writing between romney's poem to write a poem that he would write. and i was thinking that this is one way that one might be a reader of someone's work (and not, as a cynic might say, just dennis making romney's work into his own).
and we might as a class want to think not only about how to celebrate what we like in the work but also how to discuss in the procedures how we read the work.
and also to think about what sort of procedures the work takes us to.
but also, i think there is something to be learned from hearing one's poem rewritten in the opposite of how one writes. one can learn how people read. and one can learn the stereotype of one's work. but one is also forced to think, no that is not for me, and then after that why? which might be the big question. why one does what one does. or why one hates the excessive version of the poem someone else has rewritten. or etc.
anyway, good work today. but also think it is good idea to keep thinking about what the author might need as much as we can.
but back to six months... a thesis is a draft. a somewhat finished draft but probably not the last draft. so it makes sense to work on it and get it as good as possible (you just might have more time to devote to it now than you will in the future) but it also might make sense to think about how to rewrite it after it is turned in also.
Poets Interacting In Other Places
Meg, Dennis, & I were just eating in the Tea Shop post workshop, and we thought we ought to hang out sometime in another place. That is, not on campus during class. So we're inviting all of you to join us on Thursdays for drink and a chat.
informative section:
who: poets but not limited to
what: drinking & having very important talks but not limited to
where: jupiter's (@shattuck & center streets in berkeley)
when: thursday nights after stephen's class - 9ish pm
why: i think we all know this can't be answered logically
Place and time negotiable but this week not negotiable. Bart is right there. As are people with vehicles departing to the city afterwards.
Meg, Dennis, & I were just eating in the Tea Shop post workshop, and we thought we ought to hang out sometime in another place. That is, not on campus during class. So we're inviting all of you to join us on Thursdays for drink and a chat.
informative section:
who: poets but not limited to
what: drinking & having very important talks but not limited to
where: jupiter's (@shattuck & center streets in berkeley)
when: thursday nights after stephen's class - 9ish pm
why: i think we all know this can't be answered logically
Place and time negotiable but this week not negotiable. Bart is right there. As are people with vehicles departing to the city afterwards.
I also like what Juliana said about the other. I recently bought Fanny Howe's The Wedding Dress, Meditations on Work and Life and in her first essay I was struck by her explanation of reading poetry. She compared it to reading dreams. Overanalyzing a dream often times obfuscates the larger emotion that it conjures up, which is perhaps the most relevant and interesting part. She says perhaps reading poetry is similar- that really what you're left with is an aura, a halo, an emotion, not an analysis on the present administration or motherhood or aging. I like thinking about that and what Juliana said about the other (the other being following thinking through) in regards to Nest. In so many poems I felt as though she opened up a hole and we looked in and saw her world, then she closed it again and began that digging into thought. It was vague and difficult, but I liked that formula. Of looking then questioning, seeing then thinking. In that way, it felt like a successful attempt at writing a readable book. I thought the dictionary's last entry on Politics was helpful:
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society.
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society.
Dear Scott
Have you always been so obstinate? ok, ok, don't worry, I am too..so, I will defend that 'vagueness' you speak of, having my own varied bouts with 'vagueness', moments I confess, so infused with questioning and quest that it down right troubles me. BUT...these moments must be important in order for one to spend so much time thinking/writing about them. And I think these kind of questions and observations are actually so rarely talked about, so rarely written, because of what you imply as too 'easy'...or too obvious that perhaps everyone thinks these things, but here again is where I think she pulls it off. It is rare in the world today where we have the opportunity/or drive to deepen our relationships with/and understanding of things, and in Nest, I think Mei Mei expresses not only this drive for deepening, but she also exposes them, the failures, the losses, the fragility, connections, history, etc.....
Where poetry loses me is where and when it tries too hard to become something, as in trying too hard to write in the 'political' realm, in becoming ideological, the writing can lose a sense of itself. Here again is where I think Lisa Jarnot is successful, as to be able to write a line confessing how she wanted to blow up the world trade center, have we ever thought that maybe, just maybe she actually really thought that? Alright, maybe I'm way off now! But perhaps we modernists have moved too far away from the I (I'm amazed that I am saying this), and it begs to enter once again...even if it is floating centered in a field or in a room.
What do I know...but that I was moved my much of what is explored in Nest, maybe being a mother of a daughter helps? Am I biased? You are a father...and I think actually in your own work, you explore that relationship and deepening of that experience, in the way your work seems not so much purely a tribute to your boys, as often enough it is the experience of that engagement reenacted. Your work, when given a chance, exposes a tenderness, not unlike Mei Mei's, a real thinking about your sons' birth for example, as in "a narrative over gravity, downward movement/and then ten toes." And the many places in which you write about your sons' discovery of language, "lullaby baby," ( I can't site exactly right now) as in tune with Mei Mei's, "the other of myself hearing, simultaneous."
Also I am not bothered by the collage aspect..because I think all work, when it is actually worked, becomes ones own.
Another thought I have in response to the political discussions and Lisa Jarnot's response, is years ago when I told a friend of mine, actually a teacher of my kids as well as a social worker, that I had wanted to be able to make a difference with struggling youth and I wanted to go to Latin America (meanwhile my life was falling apart around marriage, etc)...his reply was that it must 'begin at home (for me)', and that the best thing I could offer the world was to grow up my children in a conscious and caring way. This has stuck with me for years, realizing the importance of taking care of what is in front of you in the ways that you can (back to planting trees, choices around food, going to a rally, writing a poem, etc that have been talked about) in order to make a larger difference in the world.
In this way, each life can be and is 'political'.
Romney
Have you always been so obstinate? ok, ok, don't worry, I am too..so, I will defend that 'vagueness' you speak of, having my own varied bouts with 'vagueness', moments I confess, so infused with questioning and quest that it down right troubles me. BUT...these moments must be important in order for one to spend so much time thinking/writing about them. And I think these kind of questions and observations are actually so rarely talked about, so rarely written, because of what you imply as too 'easy'...or too obvious that perhaps everyone thinks these things, but here again is where I think she pulls it off. It is rare in the world today where we have the opportunity/or drive to deepen our relationships with/and understanding of things, and in Nest, I think Mei Mei expresses not only this drive for deepening, but she also exposes them, the failures, the losses, the fragility, connections, history, etc.....
Where poetry loses me is where and when it tries too hard to become something, as in trying too hard to write in the 'political' realm, in becoming ideological, the writing can lose a sense of itself. Here again is where I think Lisa Jarnot is successful, as to be able to write a line confessing how she wanted to blow up the world trade center, have we ever thought that maybe, just maybe she actually really thought that? Alright, maybe I'm way off now! But perhaps we modernists have moved too far away from the I (I'm amazed that I am saying this), and it begs to enter once again...even if it is floating centered in a field or in a room.
What do I know...but that I was moved my much of what is explored in Nest, maybe being a mother of a daughter helps? Am I biased? You are a father...and I think actually in your own work, you explore that relationship and deepening of that experience, in the way your work seems not so much purely a tribute to your boys, as often enough it is the experience of that engagement reenacted. Your work, when given a chance, exposes a tenderness, not unlike Mei Mei's, a real thinking about your sons' birth for example, as in "a narrative over gravity, downward movement/and then ten toes." And the many places in which you write about your sons' discovery of language, "lullaby baby," ( I can't site exactly right now) as in tune with Mei Mei's, "the other of myself hearing, simultaneous."
Also I am not bothered by the collage aspect..because I think all work, when it is actually worked, becomes ones own.
Another thought I have in response to the political discussions and Lisa Jarnot's response, is years ago when I told a friend of mine, actually a teacher of my kids as well as a social worker, that I had wanted to be able to make a difference with struggling youth and I wanted to go to Latin America (meanwhile my life was falling apart around marriage, etc)...his reply was that it must 'begin at home (for me)', and that the best thing I could offer the world was to grow up my children in a conscious and caring way. This has stuck with me for years, realizing the importance of taking care of what is in front of you in the ways that you can (back to planting trees, choices around food, going to a rally, writing a poem, etc that have been talked about) in order to make a larger difference in the world.
In this way, each life can be and is 'political'.
Romney
So, I'm thinking . . . What if we were to consider our writing political not because it changes our audience but because it changes us (think Stein, perhaps: "I write for myself and for strangers.")? I don't think I could justify spending a year scanning bird books and coming up with poems on (possibly) love, art, war any other way. Yes, of course, I hope the reader will make connections, too, but in the end I think that is just a byproduct of my process, the process whereby I made connections and, while I can't necessarily coherently articulate what those are (hence a role for fragmented language?), I have no doubt that making them has given me another (fuller) way of being in the world.
I came across an Adorno quote yesterday that I think is relevant here: "The greatness of works of art lies solely in their power to let those things be heard which ideology conceals."
And here's John Cage in defense of fragmentation: "Syntax . . . is the arrangement of the army. As we move away from it, we demilitarize language. This demilitarization of language is conducted in many ways: a single language is pulverized; the boundaries between two or more languages are crossed; elements not strictly linguistic (graphic, musical) are introduced; etc. Translation becomes, if not impossible, unnecessary. Nonesense and silence are produced, familiar to lovers. We begin to actually live together, and the thought of separating doesn't enter our minds."
And once language is "pulverized" doesn't that then provide earth-shaking possibilities for building it back up in more "demilitarized" (i.e. personal, communal) ways? Which is to say, we don't have to write in fragments to be "political" (nor, as Julliana points out, are we being "political" merely be writing in fragments). We merely (ha! ha!) need to write over, under, beyond ideologies. Opening the world up to "unofficial" ways of seeing/being for others, perhaps, but first and foremost, for ourselves, seems wildly political -- and necessary -- to me.
I came across an Adorno quote yesterday that I think is relevant here: "The greatness of works of art lies solely in their power to let those things be heard which ideology conceals."
And here's John Cage in defense of fragmentation: "Syntax . . . is the arrangement of the army. As we move away from it, we demilitarize language. This demilitarization of language is conducted in many ways: a single language is pulverized; the boundaries between two or more languages are crossed; elements not strictly linguistic (graphic, musical) are introduced; etc. Translation becomes, if not impossible, unnecessary. Nonesense and silence are produced, familiar to lovers. We begin to actually live together, and the thought of separating doesn't enter our minds."
And once language is "pulverized" doesn't that then provide earth-shaking possibilities for building it back up in more "demilitarized" (i.e. personal, communal) ways? Which is to say, we don't have to write in fragments to be "political" (nor, as Julliana points out, are we being "political" merely be writing in fragments). We merely (ha! ha!) need to write over, under, beyond ideologies. Opening the world up to "unofficial" ways of seeing/being for others, perhaps, but first and foremost, for ourselves, seems wildly political -- and necessary -- to me.
I know, I know. I'm late. I'm gonna fail Juliana's class because I'll never blog correctly and then I won't be able to leave graduate school and then my chilren'll die...
Phew, okay, now I've got that out of my system. The thing is, I don't think I like NEST all that well. I really like Berssenbrugge, but not NEST...I think. I can hear Mei Mei reading it in my head, and I think that would work. But I feel like the writing is kind of too easy or something. It's too prosy and too "I" centered, and the vocabulary is too limited. That is, she recycles language. The thing is, I don't think though that she's playing with forms like the sestina or anything. I think she's just really limited in her vocabulary. This annoys me, I guess, because when I write, I try (usually) to never repeat myself. As such, if we look at the poem, "Nest," we find, for example, the words "wall" and "room" and "margin" and "shadow" and "light," etc., repeated all over the place. Why? Plus, she's working with these big, vague, "poetic" concepts all the time in the book like space and history and place and structure. I think this all bores me. She does though make me come up with my own lines when I read, so this is a good thing. I dunno. I'm probably all wrong.
Scott
p.s. Oh, and I may be submitting this twice, or not at all. I dunno. ˇˇ
Phew, okay, now I've got that out of my system. The thing is, I don't think I like NEST all that well. I really like Berssenbrugge, but not NEST...I think. I can hear Mei Mei reading it in my head, and I think that would work. But I feel like the writing is kind of too easy or something. It's too prosy and too "I" centered, and the vocabulary is too limited. That is, she recycles language. The thing is, I don't think though that she's playing with forms like the sestina or anything. I think she's just really limited in her vocabulary. This annoys me, I guess, because when I write, I try (usually) to never repeat myself. As such, if we look at the poem, "Nest," we find, for example, the words "wall" and "room" and "margin" and "shadow" and "light," etc., repeated all over the place. Why? Plus, she's working with these big, vague, "poetic" concepts all the time in the book like space and history and place and structure. I think this all bores me. She does though make me come up with my own lines when I read, so this is a good thing. I dunno. I'm probably all wrong.
Scott
p.s. Oh, and I may be submitting this twice, or not at all. I dunno. ˇˇ
No! It cannot be! Luke, I am your father..
"You are James Meetze. You are very suave & are a dashingly good dresser. You strongly desire to bring emotion back into "innovative" poetry, yet you disdain pure confessionalism. You are the spokesperson for The New Brutalism and behind that charming smile and those shiny western shirt snaps, you are secretly planning world domination. You love kittens, which shows your true sensitive side. Your poems make people weep. "
that was ridiculous & fun.
i like juliana's response to Other Thing query. i like aesthetics/beauty having a point.
i want to make it clear that i like NEST, i am just a little afraid of it.
"You are James Meetze. You are very suave & are a dashingly good dresser. You strongly desire to bring emotion back into "innovative" poetry, yet you disdain pure confessionalism. You are the spokesperson for The New Brutalism and behind that charming smile and those shiny western shirt snaps, you are secretly planning world domination. You love kittens, which shows your true sensitive side. Your poems make people weep. "
that was ridiculous & fun.
i like juliana's response to Other Thing query. i like aesthetics/beauty having a point.
i want to make it clear that i like NEST, i am just a little afraid of it.
“When I( Mei) find a gap, I (Mei) don’t fix it, don’t intrude like a violent, stray dog, separating flow and context, to conform what I (Berssenbrugge) say to what you see.”
On the dawn’s early light is the wave exemplifying first by a length elongated beyond the property lines of most other residents of the community.
The canine never fathom a fat home mean disposition in the back of dirty dog house bark in too aloof owners holding biting commentary.
On the over many rushes sustains an equilibrium interrogating the writ thoroughly developing a stamina as in the breath.
I am not munch for dog food but for maintenance now that my hunger comes upon the goddess and god making a hearty soup that creates every moment a nutritional.
The interim with gas seen thereafter through the glasses thick ass context books we need no faith for but federal low interest loans.
How now to show up atmanaging every biting brahminute through as if it were your leash.
Vice verses vill not be ‘zine nor heard down ze road but zensed truth some intangible antennae knocking vit yours ven ve paz on ze trail.
dennis
On the dawn’s early light is the wave exemplifying first by a length elongated beyond the property lines of most other residents of the community.
The canine never fathom a fat home mean disposition in the back of dirty dog house bark in too aloof owners holding biting commentary.
On the over many rushes sustains an equilibrium interrogating the writ thoroughly developing a stamina as in the breath.
I am not munch for dog food but for maintenance now that my hunger comes upon the goddess and god making a hearty soup that creates every moment a nutritional.
The interim with gas seen thereafter through the glasses thick ass context books we need no faith for but federal low interest loans.
How now to show up atmanaging every biting brahminute through as if it were your leash.
Vice verses vill not be ‘zine nor heard down ze road but zensed truth some intangible antennae knocking vit yours ven ve paz on ze trail.
dennis
Tuesday, February 03, 2004
That was ridiculously silly....and my rating? Which New Brutalist Are You?
You are Geoffrey Dyer. You are the shy retirer. The New Brutalism as a label makes you very uncomfortable, even angry. You want to do things on your own. Your poems are small narratives that wrench the jesus right out of any excommunicados. You are a true rock an roller.
perhaps it is only this..a laugh. but...really can't they think of any other poets to read...I didn't see Lisa on that list, perhaps she too defies labels?
You are Geoffrey Dyer. You are the shy retirer. The New Brutalism as a label makes you very uncomfortable, even angry. You want to do things on your own. Your poems are small narratives that wrench the jesus right out of any excommunicados. You are a true rock an roller.
perhaps it is only this..a laugh. but...really can't they think of any other poets to read...I didn't see Lisa on that list, perhaps she too defies labels?
i'm trevor. i guess b/c of comic books.
attempt at jessea's assignment on Other Thing:
the other thing is thinking. poetry where the coordinates of intelligibility are topographically stretched, where they multiply, demultiply, reconfigure, and shift seismically in mostly unpredictable ways.
or shape the mind in some other ways that wd be impossible to do on one's own. so Other Thing is thinking with others, letting their mind shape become your mind shape shift. a knot untieing or a knot tangling or a feeling of motion or of descent into some other mind, like diving into water off side of swimming pool and this feels good and smooth. this is one of the meanings of beautiful or aesthetics.
i think mei-mei's book is good at taking one with one on this sort of thing. maybe the wandering Dog is the Other Thing.
also stein is major here. really changes one's mind (but she has weird and at moments awful politics).
lyn hejinian is major theorist here in the language of inquiry book. also retallack. hope this becomes clear when we get to her book.
attempt at jessea's assignment on Other Thing:
the other thing is thinking. poetry where the coordinates of intelligibility are topographically stretched, where they multiply, demultiply, reconfigure, and shift seismically in mostly unpredictable ways.
or shape the mind in some other ways that wd be impossible to do on one's own. so Other Thing is thinking with others, letting their mind shape become your mind shape shift. a knot untieing or a knot tangling or a feeling of motion or of descent into some other mind, like diving into water off side of swimming pool and this feels good and smooth. this is one of the meanings of beautiful or aesthetics.
i think mei-mei's book is good at taking one with one on this sort of thing. maybe the wandering Dog is the Other Thing.
also stein is major here. really changes one's mind (but she has weird and at moments awful politics).
lyn hejinian is major theorist here in the language of inquiry book. also retallack. hope this becomes clear when we get to her book.
OK, normally I would not post quirky little links to this blog but a Which New Brutalist Are You quiz? How could I resist! Jessea, this one's for you!
http://www.megat.co.uk/quizmo/quiz.php?quiz=819
For the record, I'm Geoffrey Dyer, and damn proud of it! Now get to work!
http://www.megat.co.uk/quizmo/quiz.php?quiz=819
For the record, I'm Geoffrey Dyer, and damn proud of it! Now get to work!
I found interesting connections reading Nest between Romney and Kristin’s comments. I read Nest for the second time waiting at the Tang center for a prescription (arghh, one hour!). There, I had an odd occurrence. I put down nest about halfway through and picked up a page of the newspaper. “I love to read newspapers,” sitting next to me.
There was an article about a Richmond woman and her daughter who were bludgeoned to death, with perhaps a tree branch, in a quiet neighborhood early in the morning. This horrific event, no motive, low crime neighborhood, was written in such a way (I guess a journalistic way) that it sort of flowed off the page, between the recollections of eyewitnesses and police commentary. They occupied the entire article, but very little of it. She worked at a Laundromat. Her daughter went with her because she was afraid for her mother. It was three am when she left. It was one of the first times she had walked to work, usually got a ride from her boyfriend, etc.
Then, back to Nest. I started to read it differently, mostly because I couldn’t get the sadness out of my head, and the odd experience of something filtered out, washed away from the page, only concise fragments of an entity left in it. I started to think about the film analogy in Nest. What film? The movie of symbolism played out so discreetly that the symbols themselves become reversible and untranslatable? “Telling you is not an edge of the light.” I guess this is where Kristin’s comment on the “dispassionate” comes in. This book is dispassionate, at times almost scientific, journalistic. “I have to recreate the scene at a distance, so I can watch.” I don’t know what I am really trying to say, but that the event of reading both things together sort of helped, switching between them. “There’s a gap between events and a virtual subject, at medium range, not speaking directly from perception.”
The relationships are so disjointed; even the dog wanders the text in search of a reference. The stripped down nature of this text really allows it to grow in my head and dart around looking for the space it wants to rest at for a little while, and allows me to be confused in a sensical, Microsoft Word, manner, “the linking is the flow of the images, thwarting a fan’s transference.” Simplicity, complexity.
There was an article about a Richmond woman and her daughter who were bludgeoned to death, with perhaps a tree branch, in a quiet neighborhood early in the morning. This horrific event, no motive, low crime neighborhood, was written in such a way (I guess a journalistic way) that it sort of flowed off the page, between the recollections of eyewitnesses and police commentary. They occupied the entire article, but very little of it. She worked at a Laundromat. Her daughter went with her because she was afraid for her mother. It was three am when she left. It was one of the first times she had walked to work, usually got a ride from her boyfriend, etc.
Then, back to Nest. I started to read it differently, mostly because I couldn’t get the sadness out of my head, and the odd experience of something filtered out, washed away from the page, only concise fragments of an entity left in it. I started to think about the film analogy in Nest. What film? The movie of symbolism played out so discreetly that the symbols themselves become reversible and untranslatable? “Telling you is not an edge of the light.” I guess this is where Kristin’s comment on the “dispassionate” comes in. This book is dispassionate, at times almost scientific, journalistic. “I have to recreate the scene at a distance, so I can watch.” I don’t know what I am really trying to say, but that the event of reading both things together sort of helped, switching between them. “There’s a gap between events and a virtual subject, at medium range, not speaking directly from perception.”
The relationships are so disjointed; even the dog wanders the text in search of a reference. The stripped down nature of this text really allows it to grow in my head and dart around looking for the space it wants to rest at for a little while, and allows me to be confused in a sensical, Microsoft Word, manner, “the linking is the flow of the images, thwarting a fan’s transference.” Simplicity, complexity.
I am trying to catch up with so much that everyone has noted here. First off trying to find all the Mei Mei (may I call her that?) lines I stopped at while riding Bart into the city..so many made me smile and ponder (I'll get back to them later). And they are just 'sentences'...I love the way they unfold, an active occurence or notice, permeating the page, the field of the mind. There is a particular beauty in the sentence, the telling as it is, was, seen, felt, experienced, nothing extravagant really.....But what I'm always drawn to in her work is the lacing quality of words and thoughts that feel so close to the body, closer still to the heart, the interior life of perhaps not only the poet, but of the subject(s), and of the reader...as one can/or may relate, as where we struggle over a paper heart, attempt to apply ones own thinking with ones child, and in how may you help me, as " in this, daughter, you see more than I did at your age, because you see me."
Thoughts that are otherwise unnoted, what is seen on the sidelines, avenues I might deny, "a margin can't rot, no bloated outline around memories of witness, the way origin in the present is riddled with holes."
Thoughts that are otherwise unnoted, what is seen on the sidelines, avenues I might deny, "a margin can't rot, no bloated outline around memories of witness, the way origin in the present is riddled with holes."
WORKSHOP SCHEDULE
2/4
Scott (Jessea)
Romney (Dan)
2/11
Kristen (Meg)
Padcha (JoNelle)
2/18
William (Angie)
Jessea (Dennis)
2/25
Dan (Scott)
Meg (Romney)
JoNelle (Kristen)
3/3
no class
3/10
Angie (Padcha)
Dennis (William)
3/24
Scott (Angie)
Romney (Dennis)
3/31
Kristen (Scott)
Padcha (Romney)
4/7
William (Kristen)
Jessea (Padcha)
4/14
Dan (William)
Meg (Jessea)
4/21
JoNelle (Dan)
Angie (Meg)
4/28
Dennis (JoNelle)
2/4
Scott (Jessea)
Romney (Dan)
2/11
Kristen (Meg)
Padcha (JoNelle)
2/18
William (Angie)
Jessea (Dennis)
2/25
Dan (Scott)
Meg (Romney)
JoNelle (Kristen)
3/3
no class
3/10
Angie (Padcha)
Dennis (William)
3/24
Scott (Angie)
Romney (Dennis)
3/31
Kristen (Scott)
Padcha (Romney)
4/7
William (Kristen)
Jessea (Padcha)
4/14
Dan (William)
Meg (Jessea)
4/21
JoNelle (Dan)
Angie (Meg)
4/28
Dennis (JoNelle)
A note about Sea Lyrics and all that stuff-- I want to first say thanks to all of you for looking at my work with such care. Juliana asked me if I'd like to post some comments, so here they are--
I've always been curious about the idea of the political as it applies to poetry (and life)-- it seems to me that we could call everything we do "political"-- e.g.-- contributing in some way to the polis-- e.g.-- buying a certain brand of toilet paper, recycling garbage, eating animals or not eating animals, buying a t.v., watching a t.v., living in a city, living outside of a city, etc. So, yes, I think Sea Lyrics is "political" in the following ways:
1. it reflects upon the collage of elements that go into the workings of an American city (in this case three cities-- Berkeley, Oakland, and San Francisco.)
2. it was written by a 27 year old woman (I think I was about 27 when I wrote it) reflecting upon experiences of my past-- my life as a 21 year old white lower middle class woman living in a part of Oakland that was primarily inhabited by Asians (Mandarin speaking Chinese).
3. it includes the fierce early influences on my work of Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti-- two so-called "political" writers. (See parts of Ferlinghetti's Coney Island... for the refrain "I am waiting..."
4. it comments a great deal on commodity culture in America. (when it was translated into French, the biggest problem was getting "Habitrail" into translation.
5. there are bits and pieces of commentary on American culture, commodity culture, the media, etc. etc.-- I think of the Huey Newton/Huey Lewis section in particular.
That said, it wasn't my intention to write a political poem when I wrote Sea Lyrics. I was mostly, as I remember it, trying to document a period in my life that had left me culture shocked (having spent three years in California after an east coast/Buffalo, NY childhood.) I was also very influenced by a still life painter who I was living with at the time-- hence the juxtaposition of images and the shifting voice of the I from object to object.
When I first read Sea Lyrics in New York, circa 1996, it was political in terms of a community of poets-- my friends weren't using "I" too much in their poems at that time, and in some ways you could say there was an "anti-I"/anti-lyric fever in parts of the NYC community, partly the influence of writers like Bruce Andrews and others around the Ear Inn during the early 1990s who were certainly not "I" or "lyric" or "narrative" poets. I felt very liberated in the driving "I" statements of Sea Lyrics-- it worked for me, and it sounded interesting when read to a NYC audience.
I've done something similar in Black Dog Songs with my use of form-- I wanted to break the expectations of the "avant-garde" by incorporating formal meter and verse forms. But at the same time, none of the poems feel "traditional" to me.
I hope this is useful, and thanks again for your interest in my work! LJ
I've always been curious about the idea of the political as it applies to poetry (and life)-- it seems to me that we could call everything we do "political"-- e.g.-- contributing in some way to the polis-- e.g.-- buying a certain brand of toilet paper, recycling garbage, eating animals or not eating animals, buying a t.v., watching a t.v., living in a city, living outside of a city, etc. So, yes, I think Sea Lyrics is "political" in the following ways:
1. it reflects upon the collage of elements that go into the workings of an American city (in this case three cities-- Berkeley, Oakland, and San Francisco.)
2. it was written by a 27 year old woman (I think I was about 27 when I wrote it) reflecting upon experiences of my past-- my life as a 21 year old white lower middle class woman living in a part of Oakland that was primarily inhabited by Asians (Mandarin speaking Chinese).
3. it includes the fierce early influences on my work of Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti-- two so-called "political" writers. (See parts of Ferlinghetti's Coney Island... for the refrain "I am waiting..."
4. it comments a great deal on commodity culture in America. (when it was translated into French, the biggest problem was getting "Habitrail" into translation.
5. there are bits and pieces of commentary on American culture, commodity culture, the media, etc. etc.-- I think of the Huey Newton/Huey Lewis section in particular.
That said, it wasn't my intention to write a political poem when I wrote Sea Lyrics. I was mostly, as I remember it, trying to document a period in my life that had left me culture shocked (having spent three years in California after an east coast/Buffalo, NY childhood.) I was also very influenced by a still life painter who I was living with at the time-- hence the juxtaposition of images and the shifting voice of the I from object to object.
When I first read Sea Lyrics in New York, circa 1996, it was political in terms of a community of poets-- my friends weren't using "I" too much in their poems at that time, and in some ways you could say there was an "anti-I"/anti-lyric fever in parts of the NYC community, partly the influence of writers like Bruce Andrews and others around the Ear Inn during the early 1990s who were certainly not "I" or "lyric" or "narrative" poets. I felt very liberated in the driving "I" statements of Sea Lyrics-- it worked for me, and it sounded interesting when read to a NYC audience.
I've done something similar in Black Dog Songs with my use of form-- I wanted to break the expectations of the "avant-garde" by incorporating formal meter and verse forms. But at the same time, none of the poems feel "traditional" to me.
I hope this is useful, and thanks again for your interest in my work! LJ
I keep coming back to Kristin’s idea that Berssenbrugge’s lines are sculpturesque, and thinking about the various possibilities of what this meant. The deliberate and precise choice of words that create the “amazing syntax” is what came to mind first. However, I also like thinking of it in vaguer terms and wonder if there is the process of chipping away at a larger mass and seeing what’s left behind, or collecting ideas/words from various sources and putting them together in (junk/found objects) assemblage type of way. MMB admits that a ‘finished’ poem “tends to be a quarter as long as the first draft,” however also says that the “first draft is a well-researched but very scattered approximation, often using other people’s words, and tends to be written below my understanding.” I like the idea that she combines both ways of sculpting to get to a line like:
“Glory, formless substance, circular dawn, a child’s drawing of stars, or snowflakes and lines.”
I imagine the line began longer and more disparate, but has somehow been whittled down to create an ephemeral yet lasting effect, that “formless substance.” Anyway, sorry to start on a kind of side note, but it brings me to what I enjoy most about her work and this book, the discovery of emotion and location by combining physical conditions with abstract thoughts/perceptions, “a space painted white.” The construction of reality is interspersed with moments of how one gets to perceive that construction, and creates the “space between her image and my perception.” The book is filled with easily recognizable things but then manages to make aware all the spaces that one tries to fill, home, memory, etc. and if filling those spaces can ever reach permanency, or at least the feeling of.
“Glory, formless substance, circular dawn, a child’s drawing of stars, or snowflakes and lines.”
I imagine the line began longer and more disparate, but has somehow been whittled down to create an ephemeral yet lasting effect, that “formless substance.” Anyway, sorry to start on a kind of side note, but it brings me to what I enjoy most about her work and this book, the discovery of emotion and location by combining physical conditions with abstract thoughts/perceptions, “a space painted white.” The construction of reality is interspersed with moments of how one gets to perceive that construction, and creates the “space between her image and my perception.” The book is filled with easily recognizable things but then manages to make aware all the spaces that one tries to fill, home, memory, etc. and if filling those spaces can ever reach permanency, or at least the feeling of.
A few weeks ago we skirted the corner of a conversation regarding the readability of a book of poems. How readable should a book be? And what exactly does that mean, because everyone caps off their version of readable at a different level? An academic environment is a flawed place to be, when it comes to judging the readability of a book, because we are all on some level interested in everything- just for the conversation and questions surrounding it all. That being said, I thought Nest was an eight on a readability scale of one to ten (ten being the MOST readable). The further in I got, the more interested I became in the structure of her poems- how each line gets its own space, and how that opens up the words, the thinking in each line so that each poem, broken into pieces, becomes suddenly accessible. The lines work together as much as they can be read on their own, each one a complete sentence, allowing a reader to take each chunk, chew it, swallow it and then go on to the next. It was readable because it felt incredibly honest. She wasn’t experimenting with craft solely for the sake of experimentation, rather the book felt like an honest attempt at inquiry, at breaking down thought and building it up again. She doesn’t hold family, community, home, relationship, out of reach, doesn’t mask those things at all. What comes across in Nest, as with Alice Notley’s work I’ve been reading, is the confoundedness, the questions of a woman getting older. The personal I that she uses doesn’t come off as a loaded I, a taking over sort of I, but one that enters in just as words such as light, girl, audience, community enter in. To deny the I a place seems forced, the task then becomes an elegant-as-possible integration.
Monday, February 02, 2004
NestNotes
"I speak to you; I promise, I say something; listen to me."
I really, really tried to get into this book. I think to really do it justice I need more time, and probably need to type the whole thing out. I just found it impossible to read in a linear fashion. It has to do with the long lines & big spaces between them, a beaded necklace all broken now pieces disordered in a bowl. Instead of reading I jumped. There are so many beautiful, striking lines that jumped with me. It was like crossing a river hopping on rocks. The line I quoted above made me feel guilty. I should trust Mei-mei Berssenbrugge that it's supposed to be hard & she's making me smarter. But I am recalcitrant. So I am about to do an experiment. I want to know what will happen if I copy out one of the poems & change the spacing & enjamb lines. It could be the way in. The key! (Also because it is very helpful for me to read something by typing it out. If you really want to know it better, get some foundry type & have at it with a hand composing stick.) I'll find out.
Parachute on the desert, blue-white
with light, eleven sheep head-to-head
in a circle, asleep. Enjoyment and substance
in real time involve clearings
about which pivot opaque zones. Real
is a span of visibility, inasmuch as your flesh
is not chaotic, of a contingency. The real thing
substitutes for another who’s not
representable, as he gathers up parachute and delivery.
If I stay here and you mean something,
the part in common is disjunct
from what you mean, like my hands touching.
That you’re telepathic means nothing;
you’ve facts you can’t know
which still work in connections of my experience.
A rock in rain distributing water along texture
is my response to experience. Inasmuch
as your flesh is an interplay
of the disjunction needed for identity, flesh is texture.
Our meeting occurs near a hill
you climb every day to water transplanted iris.
Why don’t you let others do that?
"I speak to you; I promise, I say something; listen to me."
I really, really tried to get into this book. I think to really do it justice I need more time, and probably need to type the whole thing out. I just found it impossible to read in a linear fashion. It has to do with the long lines & big spaces between them, a beaded necklace all broken now pieces disordered in a bowl. Instead of reading I jumped. There are so many beautiful, striking lines that jumped with me. It was like crossing a river hopping on rocks. The line I quoted above made me feel guilty. I should trust Mei-mei Berssenbrugge that it's supposed to be hard & she's making me smarter. But I am recalcitrant. So I am about to do an experiment. I want to know what will happen if I copy out one of the poems & change the spacing & enjamb lines. It could be the way in. The key! (Also because it is very helpful for me to read something by typing it out. If you really want to know it better, get some foundry type & have at it with a hand composing stick.) I'll find out.
Parachute on the desert, blue-white
with light, eleven sheep head-to-head
in a circle, asleep. Enjoyment and substance
in real time involve clearings
about which pivot opaque zones. Real
is a span of visibility, inasmuch as your flesh
is not chaotic, of a contingency. The real thing
substitutes for another who’s not
representable, as he gathers up parachute and delivery.
If I stay here and you mean something,
the part in common is disjunct
from what you mean, like my hands touching.
That you’re telepathic means nothing;
you’ve facts you can’t know
which still work in connections of my experience.
A rock in rain distributing water along texture
is my response to experience. Inasmuch
as your flesh is an interplay
of the disjunction needed for identity, flesh is texture.
Our meeting occurs near a hill
you climb every day to water transplanted iris.
Why don’t you let others do that?
Just one more question for the people regarding the politics debate...
I hope Lisa Jarnot makes an appearance. I respect her work a lot. I'm interested to hear what she says about all this. This is the question: what do we call the something-else that isn't activism but is valid in poetry? I have been playing a little bit of devil's advocate with my questions. I have been leading the witnesses!
For me, appreciating Jarnot's work is akin to appreciating a piano sonata. There is an experience which can't be logically explained. It can probably only be explained in the abstract, or in poetry. OR some other art which doesn't rely on this type of language I'm using now. There is a feeling that I get. I think of the Thom Yorke/Howard Zinn interview that recently went around email. Yorke talks about transcendence through art. This is a cheesy word, but I am shameless. Would we criticize Beethoven for not writing political music, even though he was a political person? I don't think so.. I think I would love to hear attempted definitions of that Other Thing that happens in art which is also necessary to humans. Please write these descriptions for me now. 25 words or less! Or more! Why/how Sea Lyrics & Beethoven do something good for life even though they aren't political. Thank you.
I hope Lisa Jarnot makes an appearance. I respect her work a lot. I'm interested to hear what she says about all this. This is the question: what do we call the something-else that isn't activism but is valid in poetry? I have been playing a little bit of devil's advocate with my questions. I have been leading the witnesses!
For me, appreciating Jarnot's work is akin to appreciating a piano sonata. There is an experience which can't be logically explained. It can probably only be explained in the abstract, or in poetry. OR some other art which doesn't rely on this type of language I'm using now. There is a feeling that I get. I think of the Thom Yorke/Howard Zinn interview that recently went around email. Yorke talks about transcendence through art. This is a cheesy word, but I am shameless. Would we criticize Beethoven for not writing political music, even though he was a political person? I don't think so.. I think I would love to hear attempted definitions of that Other Thing that happens in art which is also necessary to humans. Please write these descriptions for me now. 25 words or less! Or more! Why/how Sea Lyrics & Beethoven do something good for life even though they aren't political. Thank you.
library update: susan howe's the midnight is now on reserve.
on romney's project from last semester: i tried to get the library to subscribe to a bunch of journals by telling them they were needed for my class next semester (which isn't a total lie). this didn't work. someone called me and told me that they would make decisions on serials later this semester. that i couldn't just request it. but i would like to encourage people to write in to the library with requests.
more on other issues later...
on romney's project from last semester: i tried to get the library to subscribe to a bunch of journals by telling them they were needed for my class next semester (which isn't a total lie). this didn't work. someone called me and told me that they would make decisions on serials later this semester. that i couldn't just request it. but i would like to encourage people to write in to the library with requests.
more on other issues later...
Padcha--can I borrow your grammar book??
I want to try Padcha's exercise -- it really gives me new insight into how Berssenbrugge may be working. I'll have to save that for spring break, though. I once had a chance to meet with Mei-Mei and I asked her about her process. She told me it's well documented and I could read about it in a collection on Asian women writers edited by Arthur Tze. Not surprisingly, her interview here did not tell me much. She works with collage. She surrounds herself with photographs. She's meditative, if not meditating. I, of course, wanted her to tell me just how she does what she does, achieves these lines that are, in her words quoting someone else's words "almost autistic in lack of affect, making ambiguous her well-known power to communicate emotion, yet accusing a system that mistakes what she says."
Of course, I find it odd to associate the word "accuse" with Berssenbrugge (if, indeed that is who that word is to be associated with, it is, as she says, ambiguous). Her words are too delicate for accusation. They are, as Will Alexander once called them, shimmery. It helps to hear Berssenbrugge read these lines -- I rarely recall poetry readings even five minutes after they happen, but her quiet, deliberate voice reverberates -- no, floats -- through the pages of "Nest" (she read some of these poems at the Art Institute last year).
The idea of "lack of affect" seems key to me. Dispassionate might be another word to describe it. As if her connection to her home, her family, her ancestors, her memories -- the force of this connection -- is forged purely through language, no sentiment (yet, through that, pure sentiment -- perceived by the senses), no judgment or feeling acting as intermediary -- distractor! -- between poet/poem or reader/poem.
Every line comes across as so incredibly careful, so sculpted, yet not stripped of any essence it may still need to contain. I think the only way to begin to understand how she does it is to try Padcha's exercise which, I have to say, in Padcha's case resulted in a poem that I felt read like pure Berssenbrugge. Amazing.
I think, too, though, there's a space that some writers enter that is purely poetic space -- this is a place I have never been, too many distractions. I don't lament this, just see it as a different way of working. I know Berssenbrugge sequesters herself in her studio for days at a time. I've been reading Leslie Scalapino's autobiography (Romney, I was thinking you may want to check this out -- seems to address some of the concerns you raise in your mini-manuscript) and she, too, seems so immersed in poetry, the poetic. I do wonder how one has time for such a life -- meditation seems key, the willingness and ability to strip one's life and one's work of any extraneous distractions so that all that remains is art, in one form or another. An impossiblity for many of us, I would argue, but a successful venture for the poets I've mentioned above.
I want to try Padcha's exercise -- it really gives me new insight into how Berssenbrugge may be working. I'll have to save that for spring break, though. I once had a chance to meet with Mei-Mei and I asked her about her process. She told me it's well documented and I could read about it in a collection on Asian women writers edited by Arthur Tze. Not surprisingly, her interview here did not tell me much. She works with collage. She surrounds herself with photographs. She's meditative, if not meditating. I, of course, wanted her to tell me just how she does what she does, achieves these lines that are, in her words quoting someone else's words "almost autistic in lack of affect, making ambiguous her well-known power to communicate emotion, yet accusing a system that mistakes what she says."
Of course, I find it odd to associate the word "accuse" with Berssenbrugge (if, indeed that is who that word is to be associated with, it is, as she says, ambiguous). Her words are too delicate for accusation. They are, as Will Alexander once called them, shimmery. It helps to hear Berssenbrugge read these lines -- I rarely recall poetry readings even five minutes after they happen, but her quiet, deliberate voice reverberates -- no, floats -- through the pages of "Nest" (she read some of these poems at the Art Institute last year).
The idea of "lack of affect" seems key to me. Dispassionate might be another word to describe it. As if her connection to her home, her family, her ancestors, her memories -- the force of this connection -- is forged purely through language, no sentiment (yet, through that, pure sentiment -- perceived by the senses), no judgment or feeling acting as intermediary -- distractor! -- between poet/poem or reader/poem.
Every line comes across as so incredibly careful, so sculpted, yet not stripped of any essence it may still need to contain. I think the only way to begin to understand how she does it is to try Padcha's exercise which, I have to say, in Padcha's case resulted in a poem that I felt read like pure Berssenbrugge. Amazing.
I think, too, though, there's a space that some writers enter that is purely poetic space -- this is a place I have never been, too many distractions. I don't lament this, just see it as a different way of working. I know Berssenbrugge sequesters herself in her studio for days at a time. I've been reading Leslie Scalapino's autobiography (Romney, I was thinking you may want to check this out -- seems to address some of the concerns you raise in your mini-manuscript) and she, too, seems so immersed in poetry, the poetic. I do wonder how one has time for such a life -- meditation seems key, the willingness and ability to strip one's life and one's work of any extraneous distractions so that all that remains is art, in one form or another. An impossiblity for many of us, I would argue, but a successful venture for the poets I've mentioned above.
Here is my shot at tackling the issue of politics and poetry.
First, I wonder about the parameter of both terms. Is there one? Does politics mean the White House, Iraq, Oakland's cutting buses, sweat shops, worldwide corrupted politicians? Does politics mean writing without the lyrical "I"? And "poetry" seems to be taking part in the inability to get defined. It's like the world is too diverse to get defined. Whatever one does in the world, whatever one thinks, is going to be different. And that's a good thing. It will be boring otherwise. Thank god for all human to think the same thing is impossible. But when it comes to specific issue like this one, the lack of common, clear, agreed understanding makes things a bit wobbly. This might be a partial reason for the variety of incongruous comments. When uttering that notorious comment that younger poets weren't political enough, what exactly did Ron Silliman want to mean by political? Who knows. Maybe he does.
Another word to join the cannot-be-defined gang might be responsibility.
As poets, we'd like to think about writing as our life and responsibility. We want to write responsibly. But now, what does responsibility really mean? Are there kinds of responsibilities? Political responsibility (voting/protesting/marching/activism)? Literary responsibility (trying relentlessly to write the best of one's ability/self/intellect)? Do the two (or more) necessarily have to combine and be demonstrative in the writing? Nothing's blameworthy either way, if you ask me. Say, do scientists researching plankton have to start researching Nuclear because it is more political and plankton is too personal and self-indulgent? I mean the plankton scientist should learn about the Nuclear and other way around. But does that mean the person must abandon his/her insights on plankton??? Or maybe the scientist will argue that plankton is political in its own way.
Maybe I am too idealistic, what I think matters is that one does what one sees as important responsibly and sincerely. Trask might believe in poetry as a tool of resistant. Stein might see hers as importantly subverting normative language. Cha might believe in the importance in making complication of immigration known. Creely thinks love poems are important. Poets in other countries around the world possess their devotion to the arts whether or not it is "political." The world is never one thing, being political is never one thing. So maybe we should do what we know best--personal "political" belief--better.
I am not arguing against political poems here. I am arguing for good poetry, responsible poets.
First, I wonder about the parameter of both terms. Is there one? Does politics mean the White House, Iraq, Oakland's cutting buses, sweat shops, worldwide corrupted politicians? Does politics mean writing without the lyrical "I"? And "poetry" seems to be taking part in the inability to get defined. It's like the world is too diverse to get defined. Whatever one does in the world, whatever one thinks, is going to be different. And that's a good thing. It will be boring otherwise. Thank god for all human to think the same thing is impossible. But when it comes to specific issue like this one, the lack of common, clear, agreed understanding makes things a bit wobbly. This might be a partial reason for the variety of incongruous comments. When uttering that notorious comment that younger poets weren't political enough, what exactly did Ron Silliman want to mean by political? Who knows. Maybe he does.
Another word to join the cannot-be-defined gang might be responsibility.
As poets, we'd like to think about writing as our life and responsibility. We want to write responsibly. But now, what does responsibility really mean? Are there kinds of responsibilities? Political responsibility (voting/protesting/marching/activism)? Literary responsibility (trying relentlessly to write the best of one's ability/self/intellect)? Do the two (or more) necessarily have to combine and be demonstrative in the writing? Nothing's blameworthy either way, if you ask me. Say, do scientists researching plankton have to start researching Nuclear because it is more political and plankton is too personal and self-indulgent? I mean the plankton scientist should learn about the Nuclear and other way around. But does that mean the person must abandon his/her insights on plankton??? Or maybe the scientist will argue that plankton is political in its own way.
Maybe I am too idealistic, what I think matters is that one does what one sees as important responsibly and sincerely. Trask might believe in poetry as a tool of resistant. Stein might see hers as importantly subverting normative language. Cha might believe in the importance in making complication of immigration known. Creely thinks love poems are important. Poets in other countries around the world possess their devotion to the arts whether or not it is "political." The world is never one thing, being political is never one thing. So maybe we should do what we know best--personal "political" belief--better.
I am not arguing against political poems here. I am arguing for good poetry, responsible poets.
I apologize for participating in this rather late, and there are so many things being addressed here that I don’t know how my first ever blogging session should begin. Why poetry if it doesn’t tackle political subjects? Does it have a place if the poem doesn’t bring awareness to a certain political condition or situation? Am I (one who writes poems) more politically responsible if I write about the grocers’ strike or forgotten land mines in Cambodia or the lack of funds for education in our state? If we all agree that planting a tree, writing a letter to Les Moonves to air a commercial, marching through the streets to protest the war is not enough, then does writing a political poem make one more political?
There seems to be a consensus that political poetry is privileged over apolitical poetry because it attempts to bring awareness to something larger than the self, tries to preserve a dying ideology, culture, protests against conditions that are believed to be more harmful than helpful etc. However, I want to group “poetry” as a whole for a moment and steal Andrew Joron’s question (and answer) “What good is poetry at a time like this?” He answers his own question:
“It feels right to ask this question, and at the same time to resist the range of predictable answers, such as: Poetry is useless, therein lies its freedom. Or, poetry has the power to expose ideology; gives a voice to that which has been denied a voice; serves as a call to action; consoles and counsels; keeps the spirit alive.
All of the above answers are true, yet somehow inadequate. This is because poetry cannot be anything other than inadequate, even to itself. Where language fails, poetry begins. Poetry forces language to fail, to fail out of itself, to become something other than itself—
A kind of topological fold or failure (called a “catastrophe” in mathematics) precedes the emergence—constitutes the emergency—of the New. If poetry “makes language new,” then it must be defined as the translation of emergency. Even politically engaged poetry cannot escape this consequence. The abyssal language of poetry represents (translates) the motion of social change more than it does the facts of social change.”
and it goes on. I am not one who writes political poems but would like to think I am aware of my political conditions and surroundings, and those conditions and surroundings affect my daily life and my mental state. I often use poetry to filter out or “translate” the bewilderment, the frustration, the despondency, etc. that all of that causes. What good is it?
I don’t know. But I don’t think it causes harm.
I hope that I’m not one with deeper relations to NB that can address why or why not “the political” is a concern. Frankly, I am on the periphery and only participate in the Oakland community building aspect that Stephanie Young so playfully considers NB’s main attribute in her essay “Biased Cub . . .” However, that brings into question the community that is being built when it is a supposed “drafting” mentality that builds it up. I have no answers.
Finally, I’ve been reading Menocal’s “Shards of Love” and found this passage that says “the voyages of exile and the voyage of discovery begin at the same hour, in the same place.” I’m trying to write a long poem that somehow grasps this “synchronicity.” Ideally I would like to successfully convey the simultaneity of these moments of exile and rebirth. I know it’s not a thesis statement, but it is a fantasy I’d like to accomplish.
There seems to be a consensus that political poetry is privileged over apolitical poetry because it attempts to bring awareness to something larger than the self, tries to preserve a dying ideology, culture, protests against conditions that are believed to be more harmful than helpful etc. However, I want to group “poetry” as a whole for a moment and steal Andrew Joron’s question (and answer) “What good is poetry at a time like this?” He answers his own question:
“It feels right to ask this question, and at the same time to resist the range of predictable answers, such as: Poetry is useless, therein lies its freedom. Or, poetry has the power to expose ideology; gives a voice to that which has been denied a voice; serves as a call to action; consoles and counsels; keeps the spirit alive.
All of the above answers are true, yet somehow inadequate. This is because poetry cannot be anything other than inadequate, even to itself. Where language fails, poetry begins. Poetry forces language to fail, to fail out of itself, to become something other than itself—
A kind of topological fold or failure (called a “catastrophe” in mathematics) precedes the emergence—constitutes the emergency—of the New. If poetry “makes language new,” then it must be defined as the translation of emergency. Even politically engaged poetry cannot escape this consequence. The abyssal language of poetry represents (translates) the motion of social change more than it does the facts of social change.”
and it goes on. I am not one who writes political poems but would like to think I am aware of my political conditions and surroundings, and those conditions and surroundings affect my daily life and my mental state. I often use poetry to filter out or “translate” the bewilderment, the frustration, the despondency, etc. that all of that causes. What good is it?
I don’t know. But I don’t think it causes harm.
I hope that I’m not one with deeper relations to NB that can address why or why not “the political” is a concern. Frankly, I am on the periphery and only participate in the Oakland community building aspect that Stephanie Young so playfully considers NB’s main attribute in her essay “Biased Cub . . .” However, that brings into question the community that is being built when it is a supposed “drafting” mentality that builds it up. I have no answers.
Finally, I’ve been reading Menocal’s “Shards of Love” and found this passage that says “the voyages of exile and the voyage of discovery begin at the same hour, in the same place.” I’m trying to write a long poem that somehow grasps this “synchronicity.” Ideally I would like to successfully convey the simultaneity of these moments of exile and rebirth. I know it’s not a thesis statement, but it is a fantasy I’d like to accomplish.
